- This is an academic assignment. It should be properly written and proofread rather than assuming the appearance of a text message.
- Keep up the good work addressing one another's posts by its author, i.e. @ Francesca
- Participate thoughtfully throughout the discussion. If you wait to post until 20 minutes into our fishbowl or you post once and are dormant for 15 minutes, that indicates to me that you're not using your time thoughtfully. If this is because you're a slow typist or perhaps you struggle with the muti-tasking nature of this method of capturing your thinking, choose another way to show your understanding of these stories. If lack of focus continues to be a problem, you will be asked to hand-write a response to our next fishbowl or to verbally participate only.
Monday, October 31, 2011
Fishbowl #2: Hawthorne's "The Minister's Black Veil" block 5
A couple of things to keep in mind having read our last posts:
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
So do you guys think the veils are metaphors? If so, what kind of metaphor?
ReplyDeleteThe veil represents how everyone sins and how that sin needs to be kept to oneself. It is a reminder that even the greatest of men have sin in their lives and that sin can never go away until death.
ReplyDeleteI think that they didn't take the veil off of Mr. Hooper at the end because they respected him enough to grant his wishes to not take it off, because since he was their minister he had a great deal of respect from the people.
ReplyDeleteClass- Do you think that this experiment was an extended social experiment? Or what do you think the purpose for using the veil for the majority of a lifetime would be?
ReplyDeleteGarret, but does it go away at death? The point was made at the end of the story that he kept his veil on, what does that represent?
ReplyDeleteNo one took off the veil because they gained the understanding that what was under the veil was his and no one else's. What is under the veil is sin and sin is only the concern of the one who is sinning.
ReplyDeleteThe veil represents sin that all of us posses and by the minister wearing that veil, it displays that we are all afraid to address that sin that we have. We choose to avoid it and look at it strangely.
ReplyDeleteGarrett: Does sin actually go away after death?
ReplyDeleteI think the veil represents mourning, although not necessarily over a death completely. I believe it is a way to accept and try to overcome his previous sins that he may be disgusted by.
ReplyDeleteNo one took it off because it was his wish and they respected him. Also it was sin, just because one dies doesn't mean that ones sins are taken off
ReplyDeleteGarrett do you think that the veil is just a recognition of sin or is the minister saying that he is unworthy to show his face
ReplyDeleteCorbin- Going off of your response, why do you think that the members of the town had no intention of forcibly taking off the mask?
ReplyDeleteI think it is less the veil is less a metaphor for any one idea, but that because it can represent many things to different people, it creates fear in the community. The veil gains its power by the fact that the minister never gives it a direct meaning.
ReplyDeleteI think it was meant to leave the veil on as a sort of wonder, keeping it as an unknown as a sense of respect but also as a wonder. Keeping it unknown can help preserve the aspect of the minister.
ReplyDeleteAaron- I agree with Maggie and how he needed to look at the world in a different perspective, but i also think that he didn't want people to see his own shame of his "secret sin". Because he is a pastor, he is the religious person that the community looked up to and so it was his way of keeping his sin a secret.
ReplyDeleteNick- Since the purpose of the veil is left a mystery to the reader, saying the veil is a social experiment is a great assumption! I do agree with that, since the aura of mystery would make people think, and scientists are interested in that kind of stuff.
ReplyDelete@Aaron, I think the veil is a metaphor for sin. Like the inner circle was saying, I think he is hiding his face like he is trying to hide his sin. In the story he always had a smile and he was trying to hid something that couldn't be hidden.
ReplyDeleteThe veil shows the separation society tries to achieve from its sin. It quite obviously exists, it frightens us, but we try our best to act like it never happened while it is truly an issue that must be confronted. When we ignore it, we ignore our true selves.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that a person's possessions or what they wear entirely describe or tell you about the person, but I believe it hinders a person's ability to understand or accept another.
ReplyDeleteDo you guys believe that the anonymity of the pastor gives him power?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nick, and I like his idea of the veil being a social experiment. Perhaps it was to reveal the true identity of the society and how they are so keen to retaliate to the slightest thing that is out of the ordinary.
ReplyDeleteAgain, it is the society's inability to determine what is under the veil, or in other words the unknown, that perpetuates the society's fear.
ReplyDeleteClass- Why do you think that Hooper didn't let anyone remove the veil on his death bed? Or even after his death?
ReplyDeleteNear the end of the story it said that the veil made the minister more powerful when he spoke so do you think that that is why the people didn't take it off?
ReplyDelete@Nick I partially agree with you, however I think it is important how they keep referring to an afterlife, and that you are free from sin in the afterlife.
ReplyDeleteNicholas, In what way is the veil the separation of society and sin? It almost seems as if the Minister is using the veil to separate himself from the world around him.
ReplyDeleteAaron- Doesn't this whole story seem like an eerily accurate metaphor for the life of Jesus?
ReplyDeleteJessica: Why can clothes only hinder? Can't people make statements and tell people who they are with their clothes? For example, from my Spock costume, you can assume I'm a Trekkie, and therefore in some sense a nerd who is interested in Star Trek
ReplyDeleteI believe the veil didn't come down past his mouth because it symbolizes that he talks and preaches to set an example, but he can't see it. It gives the people a way to hear him, but not be able to see him through the expressions in his eyes and on the rest of his face.
ReplyDeleteclass- Why do you think everyone was so afraid of him? Do you think it was that everyone feared the unknown or uncanny, or do you think that everyone was afraid of their own sin?
ReplyDeleteIn the text, he uses "was yet a far off" which is directly taken from the Bible, in the parable of the prodigal son. This would support the idea that the veil symbolizes sin. In that parable, the son sins against his father, but is forgiven. This would also support the idea that sins can go away at some point.
ReplyDeleteHannah- I think that nobody wanted to go against his beliefs or values and that they respected him enough to maintain what he thought was a great aid to his mortal form.
ReplyDeleteNickM: When the Minister wears the veil I feel like he is trying not be judged by the living because he is a man of God and will only be judged by him alone( possibly because of a potential sin), which would explain why he didn't want to take it off while living only when he had passed, because he says " Do not desert me, though this veil must be between us here on earth. Be mine, and hereafter there shall be no veil over my face..."(pg4).
ReplyDeletei think that if the veil was removed after the minister's death because it would remove the new interpretation of the minister by the people.
ReplyDelete@Sean, The black veil is not so much an attempt at separation from the society as it is an example for society. He wants to set an example for society.
ReplyDelete@Aaron- No. He loses power throughout the story because the people are starting to question his sanity by wearing this veil that supposedly he was wearing to represent a higher purpose, which is shown at the end of the story with Reverend Clark.
ReplyDeleteI do think that they feared the uncanny. You can find evidence through the book that they keep using contradictory statements, like sorrow, yet imbued with hope.
ReplyDeleteHannah- They kept the veil on him as to show that he is still the minister and his words were still true. That is why the veil only came down to above his mouth so that it only reveled the truth.
ReplyDeleteHannah- I think that he felt the need to wear the black veil. He was being forced by something, and i think that was by sin. I think it was his way of showing people he sinned to. I think he didn't take it off because he felt the sin goes with him to death.
ReplyDeleteAaron, I think that it wasn't necessarily the idea that the veil gave him anonymity, but rather embracing the idea of sin. Without having to worry about his personal sin, he could focus and embrace the world around him, and become more "pure".
ReplyDeleteSean: Many viewed the veil as a metaphor for his sin. During his entire life, the veil almost never (except with his wife) became a topic of conversation. People just ignored it, never asking him why he wore it nor if he would take it off. He never hindered these attempts, and he answered his wife to seemingly the best of his abilities.
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I feel that part of what was scary to the people of the town was the sudden change. He was just a normal minister, until he started to wear the veil. This change for normal to strange inspired fear.
ReplyDeleteNick- You can find similarities between this story and the story of Jesus, yes. But it seems more like the minister gains power and respect through anonymity and Jesus gained power and respect by saying who he was.
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I don't think that the people are afraid of him they are just afraid of the veil and the reason why he wears it
ReplyDeleteClass- This whole story resembles the puritan era and how devoted they are to religion. What is the significance of this theme?
ReplyDelete@nick No one wanted to take off the mask because no one wants anyone to see behind their own veil. If the minister's veil was removed then equally are the veils he sees on the others faces. We may not want to see under other peoples veils, but ever more do we not want to truly see ourselves."catching a glimpse of his figure in the looking glass, the black veil involved his own spirit in the horror with which it overwhelmed all others."
ReplyDeleteI believe he needed to, he was previously engaged and due to the veil he never was able to get married even though they were clearly in love (seeing as the women never got married and was their when he died). The minister needed to show the people that everyone has a "secret" sin. Humans by nature sin.
ReplyDelete@Nick- I don't believe this, in any way relates to the life of Jesus. However, I did some research and found that it may have been written with the same idea intended as the life of a man named Joseph Moody. Here's a link:
ReplyDeletehttp://wesclark.com/ubn/moody.html
Class- the word "good" keeps appearing throughout the text. What do you think the significance of that word is?
ReplyDeleteNick- For several people I believe that clothes are able to express their personalities although for a large number of others, it seems that they may not put much thought into their outfits, or perhaps they have to wear something or it was their friends idea. Also there is always the possibility that someone is just attempting to create a pseudo-identity and "veil" what is actually going on.
ReplyDelete@Maddie- I don't think the people even realized that the veil represented their sin. They didn't understand that Hooper was wearing the veil in order to take their sins away from them.
ReplyDeleteNicole- But then at the end of the story when he was dying, he decided to keep the veil on his face even after he died. So did he only say that he would take off his veil when he died when he thought that he had something going with Elizabeth? What do you think on that?
ReplyDeleteNicholas, I understand the veils representation of sin, I am just curious to what the idea of wearing it constantly represented, was it his separation from sin itself, or the veil? Or society and the world around him.
ReplyDeleteCorbin- Do you truly believe that he wore the veil to purge his congregation of sin or to hide his shame from his own sin?
ReplyDeleteIs the veil good or bad? It inspired fear, but it also improved the attendance at his church. It could be either way.
ReplyDeleteSean- I think he wore the veil in order to make something intangible, in this case sin tangible, you can see and touch a veil.
ReplyDeleteClass- Every time the veil was described, it was always the"black veil", what is the significance of the color black?
ReplyDelete@Hannah if the veil was removed, his wearing it all that time would have meant nothing. This is true no matter what the veil means to him or to us.
ReplyDeleteMaddie:I think that everyone was afraid of their own sin, but they would not admit to it, because they could not bear the ostracizing that was being administered on the Minister. As well as, that the Minister was like Jesus dieing with the veil as a visual symbol of others sins, in order for them to see his sacrifice for them; the fact of if their sins could be known by all they would have be judged and gossiped about, so as to think twice before committing a sin.
ReplyDeleteThe veil works as a two way filter, to put things into simpler terms, in order for the minister to see how the world is darkened by sin and the sin has even darkened the minister. The veil wasn't about separating anything, it is about giving the society an idea of how much sin is cast upon the world to such an effect that even the pastor has been put into a situation of sin.
ReplyDeleteDaniel- I think that the veil is neither good or bad it is just the perspective of the other people that give it any inclination
ReplyDeleteSeanH: I wouldn't describe as the separation of sin. I would describe it as the attempt of society to separate itself from sin, whilst the two are truly inseparable. Wearing it constantly shows that.
ReplyDeleteAaron- Scooting back to the text, do you think that this fear of the veil or the unknown is a rational expense of one's mind/time?
ReplyDeleteThe fear was being perpetuated throughout society. Just think, if all your teachers started wearing black and hiding their faces, you would be a little bit fearful because you wouldn't know why this was occurring.
ReplyDeleteDaniel- I don't think that the veil is either good or bad it is just a symbol that inflicts mystery into the people.
ReplyDeleteI believe that nothing exactly changed in the village, the veil was just trying to show that each person has sin no matter who they are. Humans will sin, the veil says that and it also shows that each person must carry this veil. It is easy to forget about ones "secret" sin, but if it worn, it can never be forgotten.
ReplyDeleteI think he is physically alive but his soul has died off, and that is what the blackness of the veil symbolizes and the reason why he is wearing it, too.
ReplyDeleteNick M: Very good observation, the Ministers ending behavior is very contradictory because as well as refusing to take it off he remarks, "Never!...On earth, never!" So I feel in his afterlife with his afterlife- body he will remove the veil when among his God.Because God is only allowed to judge him.
ReplyDeleteClass- In the beginning, Sexton tells how Parson Shute had to be excused, because he was at a funeral sermon. Do you consider it a possible foreshadow to the darkness, and perception of metaphorical death by the congregation in their past beloved minister?
ReplyDeleteI think Hooper and the veil relate to Jesus, because since the veil is supposed to take away sin, and Hooper is a man of God, then maybe the veil represents the Lord's bidding.
ReplyDeleteThere is a quote on page one, "he has changed himself into something awful by hiding his face", why do you think just by hiding his face it made him a monster?
ReplyDelete@Garret the fear of what was driving the society? I agree with the fact that it would be weird if teachers did that but what are we afraid of?
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I think that our society interprets black as mystery and confusion and fear therefore the author made his veil black. Also the veil represents sin which is bad.
ReplyDeleteMost people in this discussion seem to accept that the veil represents sin in some shape or form. I more noticed the veil as a symbol for the inevitability of death. Did anyone else see the veil this way or in a different form than sin?
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I think a lot of it was due to the obscurity of the veil. I think that the people of the village just perceived him as a monster as a result of the obscurity.
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I believe that that comment takes us back to the discussion of fear of the unknown. As now his congregation has no inclination as to his purpose for the veil.
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I think that it represents the purity of the once pure society being blackened by an unknown sin of some sort.
ReplyDeleteHannah, i think we would be afraid of not knowing something that the teachers are hiding, or the fact that the teachers are united in uniform and the students aren't
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I think he is seen as a monster with the veil because he is now hiding something and everyone knows it. When looking at somebody's face, you don't know if they are hiding something or not, but when they make it present, it is perceived as scary.
ReplyDeleteTroy: I agree that this short story shows that humans will sin no matter what. It is interesting that you bring that concept up because I looked up critics ideas about this story post reading it and found that a lot of critics believe it shows, humans fallen nature.
ReplyDelete@Maddie, The society thought that he was hiding his face but he may have been wearing it for an entirely different reason. So to answer your question, he was made a monster only to those who saw him as a monster and saw him as hiding something. But you could look at it in an entirely different way. In my opinion he is trying to connect to rather than separate from society by means of seeing the sinful world through a different perspective.
ReplyDeleteI think the black veil is a symbol for resilience, because the way Hooper wears it shows that he doesn't care what other people think of him.
ReplyDeleteClass- Is the veil necessarily hiding something perhaps fear? Or is it a way for him to express himself and his values?
ReplyDeleteNicole- I really like that idea. It seems as though the minister is the most stagnant and immovable object throughout this story. He refuses to sway to conform to popular culture. This seems to me like a characteristic of a hero. So do you think that he is the "hero" of this story?
ReplyDeleteConnecting to the inner circle, do you think everyone has a "black veil"? What do you think are some examples of that?
ReplyDeleteBecause the story said that the veil was more of 2 folds of the cape than an actual veil do you think that is shows that he may have been open to taking it off at the right time?
ReplyDeleteClass: How does this concept relate to the Rationalist movement?
ReplyDelete@Hannah, We are afraid of what we don't know. It is our nature to be fearful of things that are masked. Just as if you were in an alley, you would be fearful of someone lurking in the shadows. We would be fearful of the uncertainty.
ReplyDelete@Sara, i saw the veil as a symbol of one's real self, letting it be seen by others so freely causes fear, but also brings respect.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the veil is a symbol to represent sin with his physical body as he comments that there will be no veil in immortality. Or will he just be purged with death?
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I do think that everyone has a black veil because I think everyone has something hidden, in this case it was sin, but it could represent anything that hidden.
ReplyDeleteNick: That would be a perfect title for the Minister. A hero gives of himself for others and the Minister definitely did that.
ReplyDelete