In the first paragraph of the story, the author purely discusses appearances of the townspeople. Do you think this foreshadows what role appearances will play in the story?
@Hannah: It draws you in because he makes you ask questions about what is going on, you never really have a definite answer on why he wears the veil so it allows you to be engaged.
@Spencer: The veil was to symbolize his sin, I don't think it was received well by the community because nobody wants to think about someone's evil inside of them, especially their minister's.
Although the text never went flat out and said that Parson Hooper committed adultury, I am concluding he had an affair with the woman who died at the beginning, because he wore the black veil after her death for the rest of his life, and he couldn't tell his wife what his sin was. Do you think Hooper wore the veil for a specific sin he committed or for everyone's sins? Did the veil have anything to do with his specific sin of adultury?
@Emily, I think that the first paragraph shows how the town has transformed and what their own beliefs and society looks like. As the story continues, it shows how the minister's black veil affected the townspeople and their beliefs.
@Michaela: I think that he means that we all have our secrets that we do not want people to know about. We all have our issues that we hide under our "black veil"
I don't think he actually became more accepted or liked I just think everyone knew who he was because of that black veil. People always notice the bad more than the good. Even though the minister might not have doing anything bad, wearing the veil implied that which made people know him because of that veil.
From the beginning of the discussion, Steven stated that it was human instinct to be afraid of something that they don't know or that it's bad. I also think it's because since humans don't know, they think that something bad can come from whatever it is that they don't know.
Why did the veil have this sort of power to it? For example, in the story the girl who was to be his wife didn't mind the veil first but then suddenly effected her like everyone else.
@ Kate I think that he always had a smile on his face because he was proud of what he was doing even if other people didn't like it and excluded him from all daily activities.
@Emily B: I think that Hawthorne undoubtedly described the appearance of the town in the beginning to set the mood for the story, and to show the role that appearance would play in the rest of the story. He begins be describing a perfect, cookie cutter society using quotes such as "Children, with bright faces, tripped merrily beside their parents, or mimicked a graver gait, in the conscious dignity of their Sunday clothes". I think he began with this image of perfection, to make the minister's black veil stand out that much more.
Michaela- I think this means we all have our own shame/past/fears that we hide behind a "black veil" of our own. I connected it to high school life and how people can pretend to be someone they aren't under a mask. The Parson didn't try to pretend to be someone he wasn't I think he tried to cover up who he really was, and just live a pure pastoral life.
Even if the veil represents secret guilt, do you think it should overrule the life that we had such as the one the minister had made; with a wife and a healthy church, etc? Or in other words, should this guilt be the first thing we see when we meet people?
@Class: Do you understand why Hooper did this? Yes, he wanted to prove a point, but even he was afraid of himself and did not like the way people reacted to him. I don't think he had to be so grim with his point. Any thoughts?
@ Ian, I think he didn't want to see his own face was because seeing it would be a constant reminder of the sin he did and that it would never be able to run from it.
Anya- I agree, also because of the color. People usually associate black with evil. If he wore a white veil people probably wouldn't have thought he was evil or did something wrong
What do you think happened when supposedly the corpse saw his unveiled face and reacted to it. Was this just trying to put more mystery in the story or did this actually happen
@michael: when Hawthorn says we all have our own black veils, I think he means we all have sinned, even if we do not have the evidence right on our face-like the veil Hooper wore. No matter if we choose to ignore our secret sins or accept them, they are still there. Whether we choose to wear the veil for others to see or not, we all wear a black veil.
@ Ian I think that he didn't want to look in the mirror or see himself wearing a black veil because when he was wearing his black veil things are darker so he perceives that the rest of the world is wearing a black veil too. He wanted to be able to live a life where he was not of the world.
I think that possibly, because he was such a holy man, he was doing this in order to prove a point about sins. Maybe this black veil was to show that he had committed sins, which everyone has, and is in the process of having them forgiven.
Mr. Hooper's smile, I thought, was a smile of sadness, or more like one that shows his weakness of whatever sin he committed. Also, since the black veil was covering his face, he may have felt that his sadness was disguised by covering his eyes. Generally in societies, people judge each other or recognize each other by their faces, especially the expressions on them.
@Ben, the veil has this power, because the townspeople were not ready for the transformation and was very unexpected for their minister to suddenly wear this veil. I also believe it was the time period, where they didn't look beyond and were very stuck to their own ways.
@Katie: I do not necessarily think he didn't want to see his own face as a reminder of his sins. To me, it appeared to be more of him showing that even he is not perfect. I feel as though he was trying to convey a message to the people he speaks to.
@Harper--Great observation. If he did commit adultery, I don't think that he is wearing his veil only for that sin. However, such a sin would have made him realize that he, and everyone around him, were hiding their true faces, showing one thing on the outside but having a completely different identity on the inside.
Benjamin- I don't think it actually happened. The author probably just put that in there to add emphasis to the fact that the veil had a strong affect on people
@Ben I think that everyone was afraid of it but everyone was able to understand him wearing it for a day. Then when he continued to wear it it wore on her and the other village people.
Ben,I don't think this actually happened I think it was just symbolizing how people may have reacted if they did see Hooper's face. After so many years the towns idea of how he looked would have been very changed because of time.
@Katie: Hooper was outcasted because he was the only one in the village that chose to make his sins known physically on his face, while the others ignored their sins. it was not the norm. therefore, he was outcasted.
@Class: What is the big picture? Why did Hawthorne write this story? (moral?)
What do you think Hooper means when he says; "If I hide my face for sorrow, there is cause enough," he merely replied; "and if I cover it for sin, what mortal might not do the same?"
@Katie: That is a good point. I see your point of view. However, I still think that he was also trying to convey a message to the people as well. When he wouldn't reveal his masks to others, it showed that he wanted to be honest about the fact that yes, he was a sinner too.
@ Courtney- Because people are afraid of the unknown or what they don't understand. Like in Beauty and the Best they sang "We don't like what we don't understand" It's a natural human impulse not to like something or someone that they have no recollection or knowing about.
@Harper, I think the main point that Hooper was trying to make, along with Hawthorne, was that most people try to hide their guilt, they aren't willing to let people see them as they really are.
@Ben: I don't think this actually happened. The text says the only witness to the event was an old superstitious woman. He probably put this in to the story as a literary device to show just how horrifying the community found this black veil. Even the dead found his revealed sin to be shuddered at.
Why would people travel from all over to see the veil? For example, the girl who was going to be his wife was not afraid of the veil until she saw it. So how were people able to convince others to travel for miles to see the veil when the veil only seemed just like a veil to them since they had not seen it.
In the story, there is a part in which the minister is at a funeral and he looks down on the corpse and people said that if the corpse had been living, it would be the only person to be able to see Mr. Hooper's face. What are your thoughts on this, if it has any significance?
Harper, I feel like the big picture is that everyone has sin or guilt or shame that we may want to cover up, but can't ever be covered up completely because you can't change past mistakes
On the second page it says that the way he said the sermon was the most powerful ever. Do you think it's because the veil changed him or that the congregation just imagined it?
@ Courtney I think that people were so afraid of the veil because they don't like change and they were not able to see his eyes, just a weird smile. In the story a lady said, "'How strange,' said a lady, 'that a simple black veil, such as any woman might wear on her bonnet, should become such a terrible thing on Mr. Hooper's face!'" So people just didn't like the idea of it on him.
@ Emma: I think that it might have meant that if he covered it for his sin, that many other people would follow his influence. Through this, he wanted to influence people. He wanted to start a movement throughout town.
Similar to Courtney's question, but why are people's attention so easily taken away by something so simple as a black veil? Some people weren't intimidated by it. Also, why is it that something like the black veil can create such a strong mutual impression of an individual like the many people had of Mr. Hooper?
@Katie: I think that even though the other people were sinners too, they didn't admit it like Hooper did. Hooper wearing a black veil startled people and made them uncomfortable. I think it even made him uncomfortable, because he didn't like the sight of the veil, even though he chose to put it on. I think their sins became more real with the pastor wearing the veil, and they didn't know how to react, so because they feared the unknown, they chose to outcast him.
@Anya--His smile is described as sad most of the time, and this expresses the comment "Oh well, too bad." He smiles when his wife asks him to take the veil off, as if to say "if only." I think his smile shows that he has decided to be content with his situation. He has decided that he has to die with the veil, and rather than focusing on how sad this fact is, he decides to face it and be content with it.
@Emma: Here his wife is questioning him whether he actually sinned or if he is wearing the veil because of sadness. He says if he is for sorrow, there is cause enough. Here he is probably referring to the funeral earlier for that young lady, and most people understand a person's grief to be outwardly displayed. He says if for sin than every mortal should do the same because everyone sins, and he should not be ridiculed so hard for simply putting a symbol of sin on his head and admitting it.
@Katie: I was saying that I saw your point. When you are trying to start a movement, you want to act as though you are part of a movement. By him not wanting to see his reflection, he was practicing what he preached.
@EmilyJ, I believe that it was the congregation that imagined it because he is still the same person and the townspeople were shocked by the veil. In other words, I believe the minister was finding another way to express what he believes and to show the congregation about this.
At the end of the story, there's a quote that says "..Kept him in the saddest of all prisons, his own heart."(pg 5-6) What do you think this means? What is Hawthorne trying to tell or show us in this particular quote?
Also, for another symbolization of the veil(other than a symbol of secret sin and darkness of human nature), the veil could be a representation of the Puritan obsession with sin. After doing some analysis research online, I found the religion mentioned in the story is puritan. Puritans lead a very simple lives, with complicated rules about religion. This should be kept in mind when analyzing their society.
Concerning a topic we discussed before this fishbowl, how does the minister being familiar and hidden at the same time cause people to be scared of him?
I agree with Sydney, most of the people are just afraid of the unknown. They become closed off and mysterious. People don't know if he is looking at them and judging them for their sins. @ Courtney I feel like a leader should be someone who can be trusted and approachable. Not someone closed off and a fear to most of the people that he is over.
@Anya: Going along with our warmup today, a few people described the fear we felt looking at the pictures, as the fear of the unknown. The people of Hooper's town feared the reasons why Hooper chose to wear the veil, and they feared the impact it could have on their society. The physical veil made it impossible to ignore the sins and tragedies that Hooper has lived through. But I'm thinking that the other people were scared of what could be questioned about their past, or what they would question themselves.
Again, with people's assumptions of the unknown, yet sometimes it can be the opposite. If someone powerful decides to change something about themselves, the followers may think it's for a good reason. So, they follow more strongly. It's like there's a prestige in something that's covered up, kind of like opening up a present.
@Emily--I think the reason his sermon was more effective because it made it more personal. Before the fact when he was preaching about sin, he had the undertone "but none of us never do that." But when he had the veil on it made him seem more real, and it gave the sermon a tone of "all of us sin, even me."
@Hannah: I think hes trying to come across that the veil helped Mr. Hooper deal with his sins and what he has to deal with in his life, yet other people didn't really understand. They believe that he was sad and that it was perpetually in his heart as well. However, in reality, Mr. Hooper kept the veil on for his own way of dealing with what has happened in his life.
@Anya: I think the black veil made such an impression because this community seems to be a simple-minded one. A small change, especially in a leader of a large part of that society, is definitely noticed and not received well because they are not used to drama such as this. These people seemed to me to be kind of Puritan-like. And Hooper was the only character with a Gothic feel, that feel being the grim truth. Puritan ideals do not mix well with the blunt/out there ideas of the Gothic mood.
@Hannah- I think that Hawthorne was trying to tell us is that the minister was trapped and held prisoner by his own sins. He wore the black veil because he could never be rid of it or run away. And that compares to us because what Hawthorne is trying to say is that no matter what "sin" we commit we can never get away from it. For example (extreme) if I murdered someone, that guilt and sin i could never run from. And whatever the minister did, he could not run from either and it ended up holding him prisoner his entire life.
@EmilyJ, I do believe that he was a changed person. Definitely, but I do believe that he was voicing his own opinion and trying to make his religious reputation into more affect.
I think that Courtney had a good point in the middle of the circle when she said that people usually hide the sadness or fears that they have deep down inside of them while Mr, Hooper was brave enough to show it to the world. So I think that Mr. Hooper is trying to be portrayed as a brave man and a symbol of Courage because he isn't afraid to tell everyone that he has sins but he is dealing with it in his own unique way.
Why do you think Hooper was so strict about his promise to himself to never lift the veil on earth, even when Elizabeth threatened to leave him if he didn't lift the veil?
@Michael I think how being familiar and hidden at the same time is that he is familiar to the people. Also, the people have trusted him throughout the years by allowing him to be their pastor and friend. But then he hides himself with the veil so although they know that he is the same person as before he is hidden. Also, like the story said many people thought that he was staring at him through his veil and that he saw their "Black Veils a.k.a sins" which makes them scared of him.
Hoppers wife Elizabeth says in the second paragraph on page 4 "there is nothing terrible in this piece of crape(veil), except it hides the face which I am always glad to look upon." what turned her to fear the veil?
I agree with Ryan, I think there are most definitely more metaphors and motifs in this story than just the veil, what other symbols, if any, did you find in this story?
@Harper: I think he was really strict, because he was passionate about what he was doing. He wanted to stand by his idea, so that maybe others would follow.
@Harper: Being such a strong, religious man, he wanted to really drive home his point that the sins of all men, at least their shame and memory, will not be completely wiped away until death or Judgement Day.
@ Cassie I think that it was not an awful last thought of him wearing the black veil because they had already been so use to it and they probably didn't think too much about it by the later days of him wearing it. Also, i think that they didn't take off his veil when they buried him because they might have thought it would have been a disgrace to him and his body.
@Emily: In the church, there is an idea of how one must be somewhat separate from the world and its bad influences/temptations. I think this is what he is talking about with his veil.
@ClaudiaS I think Elizabeth's reaction to the story shows how even people who you think love you can find it hard to accept your flaws when they are right up front everyday.
I think that it's sometimes an issue that should be left alone. It was probably a good thing that the people didn't touch the veil of take it off when he died because maybe there wasn't anything really noticeable about Mr. Hooper's face under it. The people felt horrible about it because they realized that even the more powerful of people have weaknesses; really bad ones like anyone else. People want to feel like there's nothing wrong with them, yet reality always gets to them eventually and they will regret their actions.
@Emily: I agree with you,he was passionate about the statement he as making, and as I mentioned before, I think his puritan religion may have something to do with how strictly he kept to his own promises. But Emily, what do you mean by others will follow? Others will accept their sins or others will literally start wearing black veils?
What was the hidden purpose of the black veil that the minister wore?
ReplyDeleteIn the first paragraph of the story, the author purely discusses appearances of the townspeople. Do you think this foreshadows what role appearances will play in the story?
ReplyDeleteHow does Nathaniel Hawthorne's writing style play into the mystery of the story? In what way does it draw you in?
ReplyDeleteIn the story the minister said that we all have our own black veils. What do you think he means by this?
ReplyDelete@Hannah: It draws you in because he makes you ask questions about what is going on, you never really have a definite answer on why he wears the veil so it allows you to be engaged.
ReplyDelete@Spencer: The veil was to symbolize his sin, I don't think it was received well by the community because nobody wants to think about someone's evil inside of them, especially their minister's.
ReplyDelete@michaelam, I think the minister might be referring to the fact that everyone has their own secret guilt.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the text never went flat out and said that Parson Hooper committed adultury, I am concluding he had an affair with the woman who died at the beginning, because he wore the black veil after her death for the rest of his life, and he couldn't tell his wife what his sin was. Do you think Hooper wore the veil for a specific sin he committed or for everyone's sins? Did the veil have anything to do with his specific sin of adultury?
ReplyDeleteMichaela- I think he meant that every one sinned even if they're not literaly wearing one.
ReplyDelete@Emily, I think that the first paragraph shows how the town has transformed and what their own beliefs and society looks like. As the story continues, it shows how the minister's black veil affected the townspeople and their beliefs.
ReplyDelete@Michaela: I think that he means that we all have our secrets that we do not want people to know about. We all have our issues that we hide under our "black veil"
ReplyDeleteI don't think he actually became more accepted or liked I just think everyone knew who he was because of that black veil. People always notice the bad more than the good. Even though the minister might not have doing anything bad, wearing the veil implied that which made people know him because of that veil.
ReplyDeleteFrom the beginning of the discussion, Steven stated that it was human instinct to be afraid of something that they don't know or that it's bad. I also think it's because since humans don't know, they think that something bad can come from whatever it is that they don't know.
ReplyDelete-Anya Carter
Why did the veil have this sort of power to it? For example, in the story the girl who was to be his wife didn't mind the veil first but then suddenly effected her like everyone else.
ReplyDelete@ Kate I think that he always had a smile on his face because he was proud of what he was doing even if other people didn't like it and excluded him from all daily activities.
ReplyDelete@Emily B: I think that Hawthorne undoubtedly described the appearance of the town in the beginning to set the mood for the story, and to show the role that appearance would play in the rest of the story. He begins be describing a perfect, cookie cutter society using quotes such as "Children, with bright faces, tripped merrily beside their parents, or mimicked a graver gait, in the conscious dignity of their Sunday clothes". I think he began with this image of perfection, to make the minister's black veil stand out that much more.
ReplyDeleteMichaela- I think this means we all have our own shame/past/fears that we hide behind a "black veil" of our own. I connected it to high school life and how people can pretend to be someone they aren't under a mask. The Parson didn't try to pretend to be someone he wasn't I think he tried to cover up who he really was, and just live a pure pastoral life.
ReplyDeleteEven if the veil represents secret guilt, do you think it should overrule the life that we had such as the one the minister had made; with a wife and a healthy church, etc? Or in other words, should this guilt be the first thing we see when we meet people?
ReplyDelete@Michaela I agree with Anna. I think he is trying to advocate that everyone possesses their own sins.
ReplyDelete@Class: Do you understand why Hooper did this? Yes, he wanted to prove a point, but even he was afraid of himself and did not like the way people reacted to him. I don't think he had to be so grim with his point. Any thoughts?
ReplyDelete@ Ian, I think he didn't want to see his own face was because seeing it would be a constant reminder of the sin he did and that it would never be able to run from it.
ReplyDeleteAnya- I agree, also because of the color. People usually associate black with evil. If he wore a white veil people probably wouldn't have thought he was evil or did something wrong
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think happened when supposedly the corpse saw his unveiled face and reacted to it. Was this just trying to put more mystery in the story or did this actually happen
ReplyDelete@michael: when Hawthorn says we all have our own black veils, I think he means we all have sinned, even if we do not have the evidence right on our face-like the veil Hooper wore. No matter if we choose to ignore our secret sins or accept them, they are still there. Whether we choose to wear the veil for others to see or not, we all wear a black veil.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that everyone "outcasted" him because of this black veil when they were all sinners too?
ReplyDelete@ Ian I think that he didn't want to look in the mirror or see himself wearing a black veil because when he was wearing his black veil things are darker so he perceives that the rest of the world is wearing a black veil too. He wanted to be able to live a life where he was not of the world.
ReplyDeleteI think that possibly, because he was such a holy man, he was doing this in order to prove a point about sins. Maybe this black veil was to show that he had committed sins, which everyone has, and is in the process of having them forgiven.
ReplyDeleteMr. Hooper's smile, I thought, was a smile of sadness, or more like one that shows his weakness of whatever sin he committed. Also, since the black veil was covering his face, he may have felt that his sadness was disguised by covering his eyes. Generally in societies, people judge each other or recognize each other by their faces, especially the expressions on them.
ReplyDelete@Ben, the veil has this power, because the townspeople were not ready for the transformation and was very unexpected for their minister to suddenly wear this veil. I also believe it was the time period, where they didn't look beyond and were very stuck to their own ways.
ReplyDelete@Katie: I do not necessarily think he didn't want to see his own face as a reminder of his sins. To me, it appeared to be more of him showing that even he is not perfect. I feel as though he was trying to convey a message to the people he speaks to.
ReplyDelete@Harper--Great observation. If he did commit adultery, I don't think that he is wearing his veil only for that sin. However, such a sin would have made him realize that he, and everyone around him, were hiding their true faces, showing one thing on the outside but having a completely different identity on the inside.
ReplyDeleteBenjamin- I don't think it actually happened. The author probably just put that in there to add emphasis to the fact that the veil had a strong affect on people
ReplyDelete@Benjamin C, I think that once people began to assume he had committed a sin, which it seems as he had, they began to assume and "see" other things.
ReplyDelete@ Emily- Then why would he not want to see his own face in reflections?
ReplyDelete@Ben I think that everyone was afraid of it but everyone was able to understand him wearing it for a day. Then when he continued to wear it it wore on her and the other village people.
ReplyDeleteBen,I don't think this actually happened I think it was just symbolizing how people may have reacted if they did see Hooper's face. After so many years the towns idea of how he looked would have been very changed because of time.
ReplyDelete@Katie: Hooper was outcasted because he was the only one in the village that chose to make his sins known physically on his face, while the others ignored their sins. it was not the norm. therefore, he was outcasted.
ReplyDelete@Class: What is the big picture? Why did Hawthorne write this story? (moral?)
What do you think Hooper means when he says; "If I hide my face for sorrow, there is cause enough," he merely replied; "and if I cover it for sin, what mortal might not do the same?"
ReplyDelete@Katie: That is a good point. I see your point of view. However, I still think that he was also trying to convey a message to the people as well. When he wouldn't reveal his masks to others, it showed that he wanted to be honest about the fact that yes, he was a sinner too.
ReplyDelete@ Courtney- Because people are afraid of the unknown or what they don't understand. Like in Beauty and the Best they sang "We don't like what we don't understand" It's a natural human impulse not to like something or someone that they have no recollection or knowing about.
ReplyDelete@Harper, I think the main point that Hooper was trying to make, along with Hawthorne, was that most people try to hide their guilt, they aren't willing to let people see them as they really are.
ReplyDelete@Ben: I don't think this actually happened. The text says the only witness to the event was an old superstitious woman. He probably put this in to the story as a literary device to show just how horrifying the community found this black veil. Even the dead found his revealed sin to be shuddered at.
ReplyDeleteWhy would people travel from all over to see the veil? For example, the girl who was going to be his wife was not afraid of the veil until she saw it. So how were people able to convince others to travel for miles to see the veil when the veil only seemed just like a veil to them since they had not seen it.
ReplyDeleteIn the story, there is a part in which the minister is at a funeral and he looks down on the corpse and people said that if the corpse had been living, it would be the only person to be able to see Mr. Hooper's face. What are your thoughts on this, if it has any significance?
ReplyDeleteHarper, I feel like the big picture is that everyone has sin or guilt or shame that we may want to cover up, but can't ever be covered up completely because you can't change past mistakes
ReplyDeleteOn the second page it says that the way he said the sermon was the most powerful ever. Do you think it's because the veil changed him or that the congregation just imagined it?
ReplyDelete@ Courtney I think that people were so afraid of the veil because they don't like change and they were not able to see his eyes, just a weird smile. In the story a lady said, "'How strange,' said a lady, 'that a simple black veil, such as any woman might wear on her bonnet, should become such a terrible thing on Mr. Hooper's face!'" So people just didn't like the idea of it on him.
ReplyDelete@ Emma: I think that it might have meant that if he covered it for his sin, that many other people would follow his influence. Through this, he wanted to influence people. He wanted to start a movement throughout town.
ReplyDelete@Emily- I know that he was trying to convey a message to the people, but my question is why would he not want to see himself in the reflections?
ReplyDelete@Ben I think the fact that it was explained by so many people as impacting, I think everyone wanted to see it to believe it.
ReplyDeleteSimilar to Courtney's question, but why are people's attention so easily taken away by something so simple as a black veil? Some people weren't intimidated by it. Also, why is it that something like the black veil can create such a strong mutual impression of an individual like the many people had of Mr. Hooper?
ReplyDelete@EmilyJ I think people started to take his sermon's more seriously, since he had also done wrong.
ReplyDelete@Katie: I think that even though the other people were sinners too, they didn't admit it like Hooper did. Hooper wearing a black veil startled people and made them uncomfortable. I think it even made him uncomfortable, because he didn't like the sight of the veil, even though he chose to put it on. I think their sins became more real with the pastor wearing the veil, and they didn't know how to react, so because they feared the unknown, they chose to outcast him.
ReplyDelete@Anya--His smile is described as sad most of the time, and this expresses the comment "Oh well, too bad." He smiles when his wife asks him to take the veil off, as if to say "if only." I think his smile shows that he has decided to be content with his situation. He has decided that he has to die with the veil, and rather than focusing on how sad this fact is, he decides to face it and be content with it.
ReplyDelete@Emma: Here his wife is questioning him whether he actually sinned or if he is wearing the veil because of sadness. He says if he is for sorrow, there is cause enough. Here he is probably referring to the funeral earlier for that young lady, and most people understand a person's grief to be outwardly displayed. He says if for sin than every mortal should do the same because everyone sins, and he should not be ridiculed so hard for simply putting a symbol of sin on his head and admitting it.
ReplyDelete@Katie: I was saying that I saw your point. When you are trying to start a movement, you want to act as though you are part of a movement. By him not wanting to see his reflection, he was practicing what he preached.
ReplyDelete@EmilyJ, I believe that it was the congregation that imagined it because he is still the same person and the townspeople were shocked by the veil. In other words, I believe the minister was finding another way to express what he believes and to show the congregation about this.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of the story, there's a quote that says "..Kept him in the saddest of all prisons, his own heart."(pg 5-6)
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think this means? What is Hawthorne trying to tell or show us in this particular quote?
Also, for another symbolization of the veil(other than a symbol of secret sin and darkness of human nature), the veil could be a representation of the Puritan obsession with sin. After doing some analysis research online, I found the religion mentioned in the story is puritan. Puritans lead a very simple lives, with complicated rules about religion. This should be kept in mind when analyzing their society.
ReplyDeleteConcerning a topic we discussed before this fishbowl, how does the minister being familiar and hidden at the same time cause people to be scared of him?
ReplyDeleteClaudia- What about when it says that he was a changed person? do you think this has anything to do with it?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sydney, most of the people are just afraid of the unknown. They become closed off and mysterious. People don't know if he is looking at them and judging them for their sins.
ReplyDelete@ Courtney I feel like a leader should be someone who can be trusted and approachable. Not someone closed off and a fear to most of the people that he is over.
@Anya: Going along with our warmup today, a few people described the fear we felt looking at the pictures, as the fear of the unknown. The people of Hooper's town feared the reasons why Hooper chose to wear the veil, and they feared the impact it could have on their society. The physical veil made it impossible to ignore the sins and tragedies that Hooper has lived through. But I'm thinking that the other people were scared of what could be questioned about their past, or what they would question themselves.
ReplyDeleteAgain, with people's assumptions of the unknown, yet sometimes it can be the opposite. If someone powerful decides to change something about themselves, the followers may think it's for a good reason. So, they follow more strongly. It's like there's a prestige in something that's covered up, kind of like opening up a present.
ReplyDelete@Emily--I think the reason his sermon was more effective because it made it more personal. Before the fact when he was preaching about sin, he had the undertone "but none of us never do that." But when he had the veil on it made him seem more real, and it gave the sermon a tone of "all of us sin, even me."
ReplyDelete@Hannah: I think hes trying to come across that the veil helped Mr. Hooper deal with his sins and what he has to deal with in his life, yet other people didn't really understand. They believe that he was sad and that it was perpetually in his heart as well. However, in reality, Mr. Hooper kept the veil on for his own way of dealing with what has happened in his life.
ReplyDelete@Anya: I think the black veil made such an impression because this community seems to be a simple-minded one. A small change, especially in a leader of a large part of that society, is definitely noticed and not received well because they are not used to drama such as this. These people seemed to me to be kind of Puritan-like. And Hooper was the only character with a Gothic feel, that feel being the grim truth. Puritan ideals do not mix well with the blunt/out there ideas of the Gothic mood.
ReplyDelete@Hannah- I think that Hawthorne was trying to tell us is that the minister was trapped and held prisoner by his own sins. He wore the black veil because he could never be rid of it or run away. And that compares to us because what Hawthorne is trying to say is that no matter what "sin" we commit we can never get away from it. For example (extreme) if I murdered someone, that guilt and sin i could never run from. And whatever the minister did, he could not run from either and it ended up holding him prisoner his entire life.
ReplyDelete@EmilyJ, I do believe that he was a changed person. Definitely, but I do believe that he was voicing his own opinion and trying to make his religious reputation into more affect.
ReplyDeleteI think that Courtney had a good point in the middle of the circle when she said that people usually hide the sadness or fears that they have deep down inside of them while Mr, Hooper was brave enough to show it to the world. So I think that Mr. Hooper is trying to be portrayed as a brave man and a symbol of Courage because he isn't afraid to tell everyone that he has sins but he is dealing with it in his own unique way.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Hooper was so strict about his promise to himself to never lift the veil on earth, even when Elizabeth threatened to leave him if he didn't lift the veil?
ReplyDelete@Michael I think how being familiar and hidden at the same time is that he is familiar to the people. Also, the people have trusted him throughout the years by allowing him to be their pastor and friend. But then he hides himself with the veil so although they know that he is the same person as before he is hidden. Also, like the story said many people thought that he was staring at him through his veil and that he saw their "Black Veils a.k.a sins" which makes them scared of him.
ReplyDeleteHoppers wife Elizabeth says in the second paragraph on page 4 "there is nothing terrible in this piece of crape(veil), except it hides the face which I am always glad to look upon." what turned her to fear the veil?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ryan, I think there are most definitely more metaphors and motifs in this story than just the veil, what other symbols, if any, did you find in this story?
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the minister means when he says " This dismal shade must seperate me from the world"
ReplyDelete@Harper: I think he was really strict, because he was passionate about what he was doing. He wanted to stand by his idea, so that maybe others would follow.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the importance of Elizabeth's reactions to the veil? What does this add to the story?
ReplyDelete@Harper: Being such a strong, religious man, he wanted to really drive home his point that the sins of all men, at least their shame and memory, will not be completely wiped away until death or Judgement Day.
ReplyDelete@ Cassie I think that it was not an awful last thought of him wearing the black veil because they had already been so use to it and they probably didn't think too much about it by the later days of him wearing it. Also, i think that they didn't take off his veil when they buried him because they might have thought it would have been a disgrace to him and his body.
ReplyDeleteHarper- I think it was more of a promise to God. Maybe wearing the veil was an act of service to Him.
ReplyDelete@Emily: In the church, there is an idea of how one must be somewhat separate from the world and its bad influences/temptations. I think this is what he is talking about with his veil.
ReplyDelete@emilyJ, I agree with you, he believed that if he took the veil off, God would reject him.
ReplyDelete@ClaudiaS I think Elizabeth's reaction to the story shows how even people who you think love you can find it hard to accept your flaws when they are right up front everyday.
ReplyDeleteI think that it's sometimes an issue that should be left alone. It was probably a good thing that the people didn't touch the veil of take it off when he died because maybe there wasn't anything really noticeable about Mr. Hooper's face under it. The people felt horrible about it because they realized that even the more powerful of people have weaknesses; really bad ones like anyone else. People want to feel like there's nothing wrong with them, yet reality always gets to them eventually and they will regret their actions.
ReplyDelete@Emily: I agree with you,he was passionate about the statement he as making, and as I mentioned before, I think his puritan religion may have something to do with how strictly he kept to his own promises.
ReplyDeleteBut Emily, what do you mean by others will follow? Others will accept their sins or others will literally start wearing black veils?
@Claudia The importance of Elizabeth's reaction to the veil was to show that the veil was taking away the life of Hooper.
ReplyDelete