Do you think that people think that if someone gets the paper with the black dot then it is a sign that they have done something bad and that is why they get stoned, or do you think it means something else?
@Becca, Black is an archetype for darkness and mystery. The box contains the mystery of the black dot and that might be why it is black. Also, you can't see into the box when its black.
Class>If they have this strange tradition of sacrificing people in this town why is the population still growing so fast? Don't you think that people would want to leave so they didn't have that looming threat?
I don't think it is very important that the box was black, because the box had faded and they hadn't repainted it. It is just important that it was at one time black.
@Rebecca- I feel like this was similar to the black veil, and why the veil was black. It represented the unknown. Before you took the slips out of the box, you would not know if you were going to get the black dot.
@ Rebecca. It could be black because that color represents darkness. Which to outsiders could be seen as being dark and wrong, stoning people in a lottery drawing.
Jenni - I would say not. Many cultures purposefully sacrifice the most important or most beautiful members of their society because these individuals can be seen as truly a sacrifice. If a person is killed because they did something wrong, it is justice, not sacrifice.
I think people stoned Tessie as a sacrifice. Especially during the part where her husband got his paper back and had the black dot on it, and that made Tessie want to do a redraw so Bill Hutchinson had more time to draw so he wouldn't be the one stoned. She didn't want to be stoned, but she didn't want her family members to be either.
@Jenni, It might mean something more then that they were doing bad, or more that fate has something more in plan for them. We all have a purpose in our life and that might be their's, to be a sacrifice for an unknown cause.
@jenniM I think it means something else because it is a lottery, no one knows who will get the black dot, so I don't think it means they did something wrong. Maybe the person who started the lottery did something wrong.
What message is the author Shirley Jackson trying to express, if an message at all? What is she saying at societies and the value oh human life? About morality?
@Rebecca I think it is just like the other things that we've been talking about with how colors represent the mood in the story. However, I wonder why there was so much controversy about creating a new box? Unless this means that they thought the box would decide who gets chosen.
Jenni: From what I understood about the story, there were enough papers in the black box for every family, and everyone drew a paper, and it was random whoever got the black dot. I think that it is interesting that Mrs. Hutchinson was the one that came late, and she seemed pretty happy and uplifted at the beginning, and then she was the one that was unlucky and got picked.
@Becca--First of all, it's tradition. Second, it's much the same symbolism as the color black in the minister's black veil. What would it be like if it were a white box? It would seem more innocent and not as mysterious.
Ava>I think that the solemness and dread surrounding the drawing and the finality that people felt when the dot was drawn adds more to this theme of Gothicism than the fact that none of the people had anything personally against her.
The box is stored in random places each year, some in worse conditions than others (like outside under the steps). Why is it randomly placed and then left alone for a year? And why is it not taken care of?
Jenni- I think that the black dot must symbolize them doing somethings wrong. It connects the "The Minister's Black Veil" and how the minister wore the black veil so people assumed he had a secret sin. The color black definitely has something to do with this.
The black box was interesting because someone mentioned about the color black how it reminds them of "emptiness", yet the box contains everyone's life on the line.
@Ian- I think that people did not think it would "happen to them" since they have not experienced the unwanted black dot. This may be why they don't want to leave.
The story says that the black box has no special resting place, that it spent a year on a shelf and one in the post office. Why is this? How do you think the box would affect their lives for the rest of the year?
If religion is the underlying beliefs under the sacrifice of people, what are the reasons behind it? How will the sacrifice benefit them, or whatever they believe in? I think a possible reason could relate to the short story, "The Minister's Black Veil" because the Minister was implying that everyone sins. Maybe the sacrifice is done as a reason for everyone's "sinning" in that village.
@Rebecca: Black is a color that reminds people of sadness, death, and darkness. The color black was perfectly fitting for the box, seeing as the end result of the lottery was in fact death and sadness. The black box also relates to the previous story, the Minister's Black Veil, just by the impact that the color black has on the people surrounded by it.
@Steven A- She could have used such uncommon names so that the reader would have no connection with the character. If she used Sally I might imagine my friend Sally in this society.
@Kate E. I think that Shirley Jackson is trying to tell us about humans as a whole. Like throughout history people have always made sacrifice and others have watched. I agree with you, I think Jackson is trying to talk about morality.
@Kate, she might be saying that if people are threatened into doing something and that they dont know why that they wont question it. People will willingly act if they know that they might die.
@everyone, do you agree that there is that eerie atmosphere of how it seemed like such a joyous occasion at the beginning, yet everyone's tensions grew higher. It seemed this was because they were all getting greedy to win, but it was overall wanting to "lose"
@Rebecca, I think that they keep the box in all these places, because it is just a normal part of their lives. They don't care where they keep the box.
Ava- I think it does add to the Gothic atmosphere. It makes the village seem like the lottery is a normal part of their life. It is the accepting of the abnormal and horrible (stoning someone every year) as normal that makes it a gothic atmosophere.
Ian: I think that the lottery was a tradition, and people were so used to it that they just accepted it and did not really question if what they were doing was wrong or not. In the story some people were talking about how other towns were stopping this tradition, and they thought that that was crazy, and so maybe their beliefs in the lottery were just really strong.
The fact that the box was black was interesting but more interesting to me was how it was fading. Maybe like the tradition of the Lottery was wearing off and becoming outdated. Or the box won't last forever because its wooden also showing that the Lottery can't be forever.
The men said that the young people who didn't have the lottery in the newer towns said that those people were like cave men. Is that ironic once we found out what the winner of the lottery got?
@Rebecca: I think that the black box is placed different, random places each time and not taken care of because it isn't a happy sight. People do not like the lottery and they don't want to be reminded of it every time they walk into the store or something. I am not sure why it is important that it is in a different place every year.
@Rebecca- I think it is just part of their life and always have been. The citizens might fear what would happen to them if they spoke out against the ritual.
@Ava, That element might be more of the gothicism that is in this story. The people are all excited but we dont know why. There is a mystery in our minds. They might be bloodthirsty people, wanting to see someone die, like in the Hunger Games.
@Kate, reading others of Shirley Jackson's work, I noticed that most fear is provoked through the actions of others, and usually those actions are like an army against one, so that one is drawn into death by that force they cannot control.
@Kate: I definitely think that Shirley Jackson used the title "The Lottery" to deceive her readers. Throughout most of the story, I was thinking of this lottery as the familiar to our culture lottery involving money, and there was no reason to think it was anything different until pretty much the end. I had to go back and re-read the story once more so I could see if i could understand this concept of the lottery even more, now that i knew what the lottery really was. Personally, I think she wrote the story with that intention.
@ Kate. Yes it could. They don't seem to have a difference really towards this box, they have even lost the normal rituals. They also don't care for it much.
@Cassie: I think that they included the whole society because people would not think it was fair if it was only the adults. I think it is important that the kids know what is going on and they can experience it and see what happens.
@Rebecca- I noticed that Old Man Warner thought that if the lottery was taken away that people would begin to become a society that was more lazy. I think that the people who have experienced more lotteries don't think it's bad because it hasn't affected them.
@Hannah, its like the Hunger Games. We dont know when it really is or where the arena is but that is what makes it interesting. We like that mystery of not knowing something and trying to figure it out. It makes us want to read it.
Cassie- That is an interesting thought, because in most towns and societies children are excluded from these types of things. Maybe it was just to make it more fair, or their society might not view children as our society does, which is as innocent and not old enough to do anything until they are adults.
I think the tradition of their beliefs and the lottery shape their society to the extent that the people approach it casually at first, then they start to recoil from the black box when they realize it determines someone's death. I wonder how that society can somehow drive the people who weren't chosen as a sacrifice to build anger towards the victim and stone him or her.
The box seems to have been a part of their culture for so long that they do not have any particular fear of the box itself. Almost as if it allowed them to move forward, to keep the process of their lives and hold onto their traditions. Each new generation wants to keep the tradition because they are afraid of breaking a tradition that their parents may have died for, for fear that their parents would have died in vain. Keeping the ritual gives purpose to the deaths of those who have already died.
@HannahRaeLeto- I think the lack of background information definantly makes the reader feel as if it can be the time period he/she is living in. It could be anywhere at anytime and that fact is a little scary and might at fear to the reader's outlook on the situation.
Kate- This is one of 3 definitions of lottery I found:
Any happening or process that is or appears to be determined by chance
I think the Jackson uses this title just to emphasize that people were completely chosen by chance and how unfortunate it was for them when they were chosen. It shows that anybody could be chosen for no reason.
Here are the other definitions: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lottery
Hannah>The author may have left out the location and time period of this piece to emphasize a secluded town. And makes it applicable to anytime any place like we have found in numerous other Gothic texts. House of Usher for example we didn't know where it was which makes it seem like a more figurative house and more of a product of what your mind makes it.
Class: Isn't it interesting how Mrs. Hutchinson was fine with the lottery in the beginning, even joyous, but how after she was chosen the lottery was suddenly "unfair"?
@Kate, I think that they think that death is something that will eventually come and that they can help it along. They like seeing this dispare of people.
Why is it that immediately after they figure out who drew the black dot they no longer act human and no longer think of that person that they are stoning as human any more. Why is this, and is this sort of reaction something that is an element of human nature (in other words would the average human be capable of doing this if it has been taught to you since childhood)
J.M.- I feel like the imformality of this event shows how accepted this awful event has become in this society. It shows how if you do something for long enough, it becomes commonplace and normal.
@Kate: I think that these people do fear death, but they don't realize it until they open up their piece of paper and see the black dot. When Tessie was there, she was happy and bubbly, but once she got the black dot, her whole look on life changed and she became aware of the seriousness of the situation.
@Kate- I think these people do fear death, but they fear the consequences of not participating in this lottery even more. Perhaps Mrs. Hutchinson didn't want to participate, but then feared what would happen if she didn't go, and made up the story about being late.
@John-Michael- I think that the informality and nonchalance attitude towards the lottery was to sicken the reader. In our lives, this even would be like those in horror movies, not reality. So to make it a common event sickens the reader and makes the story a gothic.
Plus there is that element of chance, and how women went last, causing that nervous feeling to over take them. It is like their fate is held in the hands of other, and after each person is called alphebetically, your chances of surviving are shrinking smaller.
Courtney- Yes that is a good observation. It reminds me of little kids when they want to play a game but then when they realize they are losing they want to quit and say the game is unfair. It's ironic though because in this case she is winning the lottery rather than losing. I think that her turn against the lottery shows the human instinct to protect their lives.
@Benjamin- I think that it is just common practice in their community. It is more like a "show" and I think that it is entertainment (as horrifying as it may seem).
@Emma- I have no answer and agree that Jackson doesn't come out and say that it is sacrificial. The end says, "...and then they were upon her." We implied death.
Cassie> I think that it may have been a way to control their town. Since we don't know much about the city we don't know what kind of leadership they have and the lottery may have been formed to keep people in line in the absence of a structured punishment system possibly.
@Cassie- I have heard people in the inner circle talking about some kind of link between the sacrifice and their crops. Even though this seems pretty unrealistic, the text supports it. Like the quote, "Lottery in June, corn heavy soon."
@EmmaJ I think thats a good point, we know that Tessie dies, but we never know why? Why do they have the lottery in the first place? why has it become this tradition? I think these unanswered questions make the story more interesting for us the readers.
@Courtney: When the lottery is going on, people say things such as "Well now. Guess we better get started, get this over with, so's we can go back to work..." which illustrates the complete lack of emotion and compassion in this society.
@Class, Do you think that humans can be brainwashed into believe something even as bad a murder is right if they are taught that these things are right in childhood and if this belief has never been opposed?
@Courtney, I know Im using the Hunger Games a lot, but thats what I can use to base this off of. Why do those people enjoy watching the kids kill each other? Why do they enjoy watching the gruesome 2 week period? They might have been taught to enjoy it, or they might have been pressured into it, we dont know.
@Cassie: I personally believe that they started the lottery out of commitment to God. If it really was a sacrifice, maybe someone thought that they need to do more for God and they thought that the best way to show commitment to Him is to do what He did for us, die.
@ Emma. We don't. It really could be seen that it is positive, yet no one seems to really see that. Being sacrificial seems to be large on the outside, but the person on the inside could just be putting on a brave face because they know its something that they have to do.
Allise: I also agree. It is like how people like things until it actually happens to them. Mrs. Hutchinson didn't mind the lottery, maybe even enjoyed it, until it happened to her, and then her whole perspective changed.
Class- I just did a quick google search, and found that this story was published in 1948. What events could have influence the author to write this story.
When Old Man Warner said,"Nothing but trouble in that," and "Pack of young fools," after he heard that some villages quit practicing the lottery, it seemed like he was wanting to hold on to that tradition. Why did they want to keep that tradition? In a sense, other than just religious reasons behind the sacrifices, it almost seemed like a power reason as well, like "this village is tougher and better than the other village because we sacrifice people." Like Ryan said, it could be because they thought it would help make their soil more fertile. However, in most cultures in the past, they sacrificed virgins, while in that village, they seemed to sacrifice anybody.
@Rebecca- I think they feel like it is their duty because they are the head of the household. It also tests their strength because Mrs. Hutchinson says "I think we need to start over" once she found that her husband drew the black dot.
In response to Ryan, I think that the town will continue with the lottery, because they have all been brought up with it. For example, the Amish have been around for hundreds of years, and they aren't exactly normal.
@ Rebecca. I wondered that to. Discrimination is throughout the town. I think that it really is just because that they see it as a honor, so the women can't do it. I think that it just is because the feeling of superiority.
@Ben--For sure. Look at Hitler--the Nazis did horrendous things and yet they eventually felt no remorse. Of course, it felt wrong at first, but they convinced themselves that it was okay. I think this is probably what happened in the lottery as well.
Benjamin>I think that yes, if there were a different set of moral values enforced in this town (killing=ok) then everybody will be fine with it and nobody will realise it is a bad thing. People may feel remorse or other emotions but I think they would expect that that is part of life. And that's how that is.
"...speaking of planting and rain, tractors and taxes. They stood together, away from the in the corner, and their jokes were quiet and they smiled rather than laughed." Even though these people still have the idea of them being the one to "win" the lottery, what is grim is that they still except it as if it is a joyful occasion. I also thought of the idea that those that need to participate in the lottery are farmers. Is that the entire village, or are there people of higher classes that don't nedd to participate in sacrifice? Do you think these people in the story are trying to convince themselves that they are being noble for their village?
Benjamin- That is a good connection to our guiding questions. I think that it is possible for them not to see their wrong because the culture has taught them this and it is all they know. For example in World Geo. and Civ. we are learning about the "Invisible Children" in Uganda. When they are abducted by the LRA they are taught to do awful things including murder other children and adults. They are abducted at a very young age and this is all they know so they kill many people without consequence.
I don't think they're going to keep practicing this tradition because if the other villages quit, eventually influence will move in if people start moving around. However, if they do keep the tradition in practice, I think that village will die out because of what Harper mentioned about how the crop growth isn't going to be the same every year. If a series of years contributes to bad crop growth, the village may start sacrificing more than one person if they think that will help make the soil more fertile.
Paul: So you are saying that the people were taught to enjoy it, and grew up thinking that stoning to death a person is a good thing? So if people grow up in a society learning that what is wrong is actually right, then are they to blame?
Why is it important that the box be black?
ReplyDeleteDo you think that people think that if someone gets the paper with the black dot then it is a sign that they have done something bad and that is why they get stoned, or do you think it means something else?
ReplyDelete@Becca, Black is an archetype for darkness and mystery. The box contains the mystery of the black dot and that might be why it is black. Also, you can't see into the box when its black.
ReplyDeleteClass>If they have this strange tradition of sacrificing people in this town why is the population still growing so fast? Don't you think that people would want to leave so they didn't have that looming threat?
ReplyDeleteI don't think it is very important that the box was black, because the box had faded and they hadn't repainted it. It is just important that it was at one time black.
ReplyDelete@Rebecca- I feel like this was similar to the black veil, and why the veil was black. It represented the unknown. Before you took the slips out of the box, you would not know if you were going to get the black dot.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that what Ryan said "there is nothing really personally against her" adds to that Gothic atmosphere? Why?
ReplyDelete@ Rebecca. It could be black because that color represents darkness. Which to outsiders could be seen as being dark and wrong, stoning people in a lottery drawing.
ReplyDeleteJenni - I would say not. Many cultures purposefully sacrifice the most important or most beautiful members of their society because these individuals can be seen as truly a sacrifice. If a person is killed because they did something wrong, it is justice, not sacrifice.
ReplyDeleteI think people stoned Tessie as a sacrifice. Especially during the part where her husband got his paper back and had the black dot on it, and that made Tessie want to do a redraw so Bill Hutchinson had more time to draw so he wouldn't be the one stoned. She didn't want to be stoned, but she didn't want her family members to be either.
ReplyDelete@Jenni, It might mean something more then that they were doing bad, or more that fate has something more in plan for them. We all have a purpose in our life and that might be their's, to be a sacrifice for an unknown cause.
ReplyDelete@jenniM I think it means something else because it is a lottery, no one knows who will get the black dot, so I don't think it means they did something wrong. Maybe the person who started the lottery did something wrong.
ReplyDeleteWhat message is the author Shirley Jackson trying to express, if an message at all? What is she saying at societies and the value oh human life? About morality?
ReplyDelete@Rebecca I think it is just like the other things that we've been talking about with how colors represent the mood in the story. However, I wonder why there was so much controversy about creating a new box? Unless this means that they thought the box would decide who gets chosen.
ReplyDeleteJenni: From what I understood about the story, there were enough papers in the black box for every family, and everyone drew a paper, and it was random whoever got the black dot. I think that it is interesting that Mrs. Hutchinson was the one that came late, and she seemed pretty happy and uplifted at the beginning, and then she was the one that was unlucky and got picked.
ReplyDelete@Becca--First of all, it's tradition. Second, it's much the same symbolism as the color black in the minister's black veil. What would it be like if it were a white box? It would seem more innocent and not as mysterious.
ReplyDeleteAva>I think that the solemness and dread surrounding the drawing and the finality that people felt when the dot was drawn adds more to this theme of Gothicism than the fact that none of the people had anything personally against her.
ReplyDeleteThe box is stored in random places each year, some in worse conditions than others (like outside under the steps). Why is it randomly placed and then left alone for a year? And why is it not taken care of?
ReplyDeleteClass- The author uses really weird names for the characters, such as Delacroix, Summers, or Graves. What do these names mean/symbolize?
ReplyDeleteJenni- I think that the black dot must symbolize them doing somethings wrong. It connects the "The Minister's Black Veil" and how the minister wore the black veil so people assumed he had a secret sin. The color black definitely has something to do with this.
ReplyDeleteThe black box was interesting because someone mentioned about the color black how it reminds them of "emptiness", yet the box contains everyone's life on the line.
ReplyDeleteDoesn't lottery usually imply lots of money in our minds? Did the author use this title to deceive us?
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that when Tessie speaks out, out of three hundred people, she is the one stoned. Why?
ReplyDelete@Ian- I think that people did not think it would "happen to them" since they have not experienced the unwanted black dot. This may be why they don't want to leave.
ReplyDeleteThe story says that the black box has no special resting place, that it spent a year on a shelf and one in the post office. Why is this? How do you think the box would affect their lives for the rest of the year?
ReplyDelete@Anya--Was Tessie really scared for her family, or did she want Bill to redraw just so that she wouldn't be in danger?
ReplyDeleteIf religion is the underlying beliefs under the sacrifice of people, what are the reasons behind it? How will the sacrifice benefit them, or whatever they believe in? I think a possible reason could relate to the short story, "The Minister's Black Veil" because the Minister was implying that everyone sins. Maybe the sacrifice is done as a reason for everyone's "sinning" in that village.
ReplyDelete@Rebecca: Black is a color that reminds people of sadness, death, and darkness. The color black was perfectly fitting for the box, seeing as the end result of the lottery was in fact death and sadness. The black box also relates to the previous story, the Minister's Black Veil, just by the impact that the color black has on the people surrounded by it.
ReplyDelete@Steven A- She could have used such uncommon names so that the reader would have no connection with the character. If she used Sally I might imagine my friend Sally in this society.
ReplyDelete@Kate E. I think that Shirley Jackson is trying to tell us about humans as a whole. Like throughout history people have always made sacrifice and others have watched. I agree with you, I think Jackson is trying to talk about morality.
ReplyDelete@Kate, she might be saying that if people are threatened into doing something and that they dont know why that they wont question it. People will willingly act if they know that they might die.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@everyone, do you agree that there is that eerie atmosphere of how it seemed like such a joyous occasion at the beginning, yet everyone's tensions grew higher. It seemed this was because they were all getting greedy to win, but it was overall wanting to "lose"
ReplyDelete@Rebecca, I think that they keep the box in all these places, because it is just a normal part of their lives. They don't care where they keep the box.
ReplyDeleteCould the worn down black box symbolize the fear that once existed, worn and now not very present?
ReplyDeleteWhat makes them keep the ritual?
ReplyDeleteAva- I think it does add to the Gothic atmosphere. It makes the village seem like the lottery is a normal part of their life. It is the accepting of the abnormal and horrible (stoning someone every year) as normal that makes it a gothic atmosophere.
ReplyDelete@Madeline- I thought of that also while reading. I personally think that the box is just placed somewhere because the people want to forget about it.
ReplyDeleteIan: I think that the lottery was a tradition, and people were so used to it that they just accepted it and did not really question if what they were doing was wrong or not. In the story some people were talking about how other towns were stopping this tradition, and they thought that that was crazy, and so maybe their beliefs in the lottery were just really strong.
ReplyDeleteThe fact that the box was black was interesting but more interesting to me was how it was fading. Maybe like the tradition of the Lottery was wearing off and becoming outdated. Or the box won't last forever because its wooden also showing that the Lottery can't be forever.
ReplyDeleteThe men said that the young people who didn't have the lottery in the newer towns said that those people were like cave men. Is that ironic once we found out what the winner of the lottery got?
ReplyDelete@Rebecca: I think that the black box is placed different, random places each time and not taken care of because it isn't a happy sight. People do not like the lottery and they don't want to be reminded of it every time they walk into the store or something. I am not sure why it is important that it is in a different place every year.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think they included the whole society, even children in this lottery?
ReplyDelete@Rebecca- I think it is just part of their life and always have been. The citizens might fear what would happen to them if they spoke out against the ritual.
ReplyDelete@Ava, That element might be more of the gothicism that is in this story. The people are all excited but we dont know why. There is a mystery in our minds. They might be bloodthirsty people, wanting to see someone die, like in the Hunger Games.
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't Shirley Jackson ever tell us what tie period this story takes place or where it takes place. What does this add to the story?
ReplyDelete@Cassie, since it is a sacrifice, it seems as though everyone should be included.
ReplyDeleteDo these people fear death? What is their outlook upon it?
ReplyDelete@Kate, reading others of Shirley Jackson's work, I noticed that most fear is provoked through the actions of others, and usually those actions are like an army against one, so that one is drawn into death by that force they cannot control.
ReplyDelete@Kate: I definitely think that Shirley Jackson used the title "The Lottery" to deceive her readers. Throughout most of the story, I was thinking of this lottery as the familiar to our culture lottery involving money, and there was no reason to think it was anything different until pretty much the end. I had to go back and re-read the story once more so I could see if i could understand this concept of the lottery even more, now that i knew what the lottery really was. Personally, I think she wrote the story with that intention.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the significance of the nonchalance/informality of the lottery? (To the people it just seems like another public event.)
ReplyDelete@ Kate. Yes it could. They don't seem to have a difference really towards this box, they have even lost the normal rituals. They also don't care for it much.
ReplyDelete@Cassie: I think that they included the whole society because people would not think it was fair if it was only the adults. I think it is important that the kids know what is going on and they can experience it and see what happens.
ReplyDelete@Rebecca- I noticed that Old Man Warner thought that if the lottery was taken away that people would begin to become a society that was more lazy. I think that the people who have experienced more lotteries don't think it's bad because it hasn't affected them.
ReplyDelete@Hannah, its like the Hunger Games. We dont know when it really is or where the arena is but that is what makes it interesting. We like that mystery of not knowing something and trying to figure it out. It makes us want to read it.
ReplyDeleteCassie- That is an interesting thought, because in most towns and societies children are excluded from these types of things. Maybe it was just to make it more fair, or their society might not view children as our society does, which is as innocent and not old enough to do anything until they are adults.
ReplyDeleteCassie- I think Shirley Jackson made everyone included in the story to show how this is an event of sorts, almost like a neighborhood block party.
ReplyDeleteI think the tradition of their beliefs and the lottery shape their society to the extent that the people approach it casually at first, then they start to recoil from the black box when they realize it determines someone's death. I wonder how that society can somehow drive the people who weren't chosen as a sacrifice to build anger towards the victim and stone him or her.
ReplyDelete@Kate--They definitely fear their own deaths (look at Tessie) but they clearly don't fear each others' deaths.
ReplyDeleteThe people of the town say that a lot of the ritual has been lost. What could those rituals have been giving the prize of the lottery?
ReplyDeleteThe box seems to have been a part of their culture for so long that they do not have any particular fear of the box itself. Almost as if it allowed them to move forward, to keep the process of their lives and hold onto their traditions. Each new generation wants to keep the tradition because they are afraid of breaking a tradition that their parents may have died for, for fear that their parents would have died in vain. Keeping the ritual gives purpose to the deaths of those who have already died.
ReplyDelete@HannahRaeLeto- I think the lack of background information definantly makes the reader feel as if it can be the time period he/she is living in. It could be anywhere at anytime and that fact is a little scary and might at fear to the reader's outlook on the situation.
ReplyDeleteHow did the complete lack of emotion add to our understanding of Gothic literature?
ReplyDeleteKate-
ReplyDeleteThis is one of 3 definitions of lottery I found:
Any happening or process that is or appears to be determined by chance
I think the Jackson uses this title just to emphasize that people were completely chosen by chance and how unfortunate it was for them when they were chosen. It shows that anybody could be chosen for no reason.
Here are the other definitions:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lottery
Hannah>The author may have left out the location and time period of this piece to emphasize a secluded town. And makes it applicable to anytime any place like we have found in numerous other Gothic texts. House of Usher for example we didn't know where it was which makes it seem like a more figurative house and more of a product of what your mind makes it.
ReplyDeleteClass: Isn't it interesting how Mrs. Hutchinson was fine with the lottery in the beginning, even joyous, but how after she was chosen the lottery was suddenly "unfair"?
ReplyDelete@Kate, I think that they think that death is something that will eventually come and that they can help it along. They like seeing this dispare of people.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that immediately after they figure out who drew the black dot they no longer act human and no longer think of that person that they are stoning as human any more. Why is this, and is this sort of reaction something that is an element of human nature (in other words would the average human be capable of doing this if it has been taught to you since childhood)
ReplyDeleteJ.M.- I feel like the imformality of this event shows how accepted this awful event has become in this society. It shows how if you do something for long enough, it becomes commonplace and normal.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think they began the lottery in the first place?
ReplyDelete@Kate: I think that these people do fear death, but they don't realize it until they open up their piece of paper and see the black dot. When Tessie was there, she was happy and bubbly, but once she got the black dot, her whole look on life changed and she became aware of the seriousness of the situation.
ReplyDeleteEmma: What do you mean by complete lack of emotion?
ReplyDelete@Kate- I think these people do fear death, but they fear the consequences of not participating in this lottery even more. Perhaps Mrs. Hutchinson didn't want to participate, but then feared what would happen if she didn't go, and made up the story about being late.
ReplyDelete@John-Michael- I think that the informality and nonchalance attitude towards the lottery was to sicken the reader. In our lives, this even would be like those in horror movies, not reality. So to make it a common event sickens the reader and makes the story a gothic.
ReplyDelete@Cassie, if youve read the Hunger Games, why did they start that? We dont know but they like seeing the people die and then they get spoils from it.
ReplyDeletePlus there is that element of chance, and how women went last, causing that nervous feeling to over take them. It is like their fate is held in the hands of other, and after each person is called alphebetically, your chances of surviving are shrinking smaller.
ReplyDeleteHow do we know for sure that 'winning the lottery' is sacrificial?
ReplyDeleteCourtney- Yes that is a good observation. It reminds me of little kids when they want to play a game but then when they realize they are losing they want to quit and say the game is unfair. It's ironic though because in this case she is winning the lottery rather than losing. I think that her turn against the lottery shows the human instinct to protect their lives.
ReplyDeletePaul: Interesting thought- why do you think that people enjoy watching other people die?
ReplyDelete@Benjamin- I think that it is just common practice in their community. It is more like a "show" and I think that it is entertainment (as horrifying as it may seem).
ReplyDelete@Emma- I have no answer and agree that Jackson doesn't come out and say that it is sacrificial. The end says, "...and then they were upon her." We implied death.
ReplyDeleteWhy do the men draw for the family?
ReplyDeleteCassie> I think that it may have been a way to control their town. Since we don't know much about the city we don't know what kind of leadership they have and the lottery may have been formed to keep people in line in the absence of a structured punishment system possibly.
ReplyDelete@Cassie- I have heard people in the inner circle talking about some kind of link between the sacrifice and their crops. Even though this seems pretty unrealistic, the text supports it. Like the quote, "Lottery in June, corn heavy soon."
ReplyDelete@EmmaJ I think thats a good point, we know that Tessie dies, but we never know why? Why do they have the lottery in the first place? why has it become this tradition? I think these unanswered questions make the story more interesting for us the readers.
ReplyDelete@Courtney B- I think the only reason they would injure watching other people die, is because it's not them.
ReplyDelete@Courtney: When the lottery is going on, people say things such as "Well now. Guess we better get started, get this over with, so's we can go back to work..." which illustrates the complete lack of emotion and compassion in this society.
ReplyDelete@Class, Do you think that humans can be brainwashed into believe something even as bad a murder is right if they are taught that these things are right in childhood and if this belief has never been opposed?
ReplyDelete@Courtney, I know Im using the Hunger Games a lot, but thats what I can use to base this off of. Why do those people enjoy watching the kids kill each other? Why do they enjoy watching the gruesome 2 week period? They might have been taught to enjoy it, or they might have been pressured into it, we dont know.
ReplyDelete@Kate--But what lesson can we learn from this? Sure it sickens the reader, but is that the only point?
ReplyDelete@Cassie: I personally believe that they started the lottery out of commitment to God. If it really was a sacrifice, maybe someone thought that they need to do more for God and they thought that the best way to show commitment to Him is to do what He did for us, die.
ReplyDelete@ Emma. We don't. It really could be seen that it is positive, yet no one seems to really see that. Being sacrificial seems to be large on the outside, but the person on the inside could just be putting on a brave face because they know its something that they have to do.
ReplyDeleteAllise: I also agree. It is like how people like things until it actually happens to them. Mrs. Hutchinson didn't mind the lottery, maybe even enjoyed it, until it happened to her, and then her whole perspective changed.
ReplyDeleteClass- I just did a quick google search, and found that this story was published in 1948. What events could have influence the author to write this story.
ReplyDeleteAre all the themes that come out of this story bad? Or could there be good themes too like live life to the fullest.
ReplyDeleteWhen Old Man Warner said,"Nothing but trouble in that," and "Pack of young fools," after he heard that some villages quit practicing the lottery, it seemed like he was wanting to hold on to that tradition. Why did they want to keep that tradition? In a sense, other than just religious reasons behind the sacrifices, it almost seemed like a power reason as well, like "this village is tougher and better than the other village because we sacrifice people." Like Ryan said, it could be because they thought it would help make their soil more fertile. However, in most cultures in the past, they sacrificed virgins, while in that village, they seemed to sacrifice anybody.
ReplyDelete@Rebecca- I think they feel like it is their duty because they are the head of the household. It also tests their strength because Mrs. Hutchinson says "I think we need to start over" once she found that her husband drew the black dot.
ReplyDeleteIn response to Ryan, I think that the town will continue with the lottery, because they have all been brought up with it. For example, the Amish have been around for hundreds of years, and they aren't exactly normal.
ReplyDelete@ Rebecca. I wondered that to. Discrimination is throughout the town. I think that it really is just because that they see it as a honor, so the women can't do it. I think that it just is because the feeling of superiority.
ReplyDelete@Ben--For sure. Look at Hitler--the Nazis did horrendous things and yet they eventually felt no remorse. Of course, it felt wrong at first, but they convinced themselves that it was okay. I think this is probably what happened in the lottery as well.
ReplyDeleteBenjamin>I think that yes, if there were a different set of moral values enforced in this town (killing=ok) then everybody will be fine with it and nobody will realise it is a bad thing. People may feel remorse or other emotions but I think they would expect that that is part of life. And that's how that is.
ReplyDelete@John Michael- The author could be trying to express to the reader what happens when people don't question and protest some of societie's "norms".
ReplyDelete"...speaking of planting and rain, tractors and taxes. They stood together, away from the in the corner, and their jokes were quiet and they smiled rather than laughed." Even though these people still have the idea of them being the one to "win" the lottery, what is grim is that they still except it as if it is a joyful occasion. I also thought of the idea that those that need to participate in the lottery are farmers. Is that the entire village, or are there people of higher classes that don't nedd to participate in sacrifice? Do you think these people in the story are trying to convince themselves that they are being noble for their village?
ReplyDeleteBenjamin- That is a good connection to our guiding questions. I think that it is possible for them not to see their wrong because the culture has taught them this and it is all they know. For example in World Geo. and Civ. we are learning about the "Invisible Children" in Uganda. When they are abducted by the LRA they are taught to do awful things including murder other children and adults. They are abducted at a very young age and this is all they know so they kill many people without consequence.
ReplyDeleteI don't think they're going to keep practicing this tradition because if the other villages quit, eventually influence will move in if people start moving around. However, if they do keep the tradition in practice, I think that village will die out because of what Harper mentioned about how the crop growth isn't going to be the same every year. If a series of years contributes to bad crop growth, the village may start sacrificing more than one person if they think that will help make the soil more fertile.
ReplyDelete@Anya--Old Man Warren's view is that it's worked this way for all my life, why change it now?
ReplyDeleteBen- I think that it is definitely possible that we can think murdering is right if we are brought up in that environment.
ReplyDeleteDid the girl who had to 'wait up' because she couldn't run, Was that really the truth or did she not want to hurt her friend or any more people?
ReplyDeletePaul: So you are saying that the people were taught to enjoy it, and grew up thinking that stoning to death a person is a good thing? So if people grow up in a society learning that what is wrong is actually right, then are they to blame?
ReplyDelete