We have been talking about the position of the climax/release of emotion. Where do you think that falls in this story? How does that aid the mood/tone of this story as a whole?
If you noticed, the story was written in limited 3rd person focused on the grandmother. How do you think the story would change if it was focused on someone else... Like the dad, or mom?
Anna- I think the moment of catharsis is experienced by the grandma, when she is yelling her sons name and right before the end when she says to the misfit "you're one of my babies" I think that was the moment of catharsis.
Anna, I feel that there can be more than one moment. Each character can have this moment. I do agree with the inner circle, that the grandmother and the misfit both experienced catharsis but there can be more than one moment.
@Class: What was the purpose of the lack of connection between the reader and the story? How O'Conner kept the grandmother unnamed and kept referring to the characters as "the grandmother" or "the mother" or "the children"?
@ Ian I think the climax of emotion was when the grandmother was shot by the Misfit, because once the grandmother was killed the tire family was killed and the story began the falling action
I think the Grandmother's moment of catharsis was when she heard screams coming from the woods, and began to doubt if she would live. She screamed "Jesus! You've got good blood! I know you wouldn't shoot a lady!" and so on. She realized for sure at that point that she may not live, and only a few lines later she goes dizzy and weak, and falls to the ground. I think her moment of catharsis was her last hope to stop the Misfit from killing her.
Class- Something that I have been wondering: is the misfit sane? He's obviously killing, so he is emotionally damaged. But does he ever really show signs of insanity?
@Katie- I think it would be interesting written from the mom's perspective because when asked to join her husband (after I figured out he had been murdered) she willingly left.
Steven, do most murderers show signs of being damaged or being insane, somewhat. To me, this person just seems disturbed and that he is trying to fix something that is wrong because he doesn't understand.
@Kate- I think his purpose is to add to the understanding of the title of the story. He talked with the grandmother about how people were not well-mannered anymore.
Ben-I think there was a lot of intro. just to show the point of what a "grandmother"she is, I think all of the introduction information is so the reader can have an insight to the grandmother's character.
@Anna, I think think the majority of the Catharsis occurs to the grandma. Mainly for the similar points the the inner circle already discussed. I think the beginning of it was when she discovered that the Misfit came out of the car and found her and her family after the accident. I also think her moment of Catharsis occured when she was telling the Misfit to pray, mainly because I think she was trying to convince herself that everything was going to be okay, and that somehow maybe he would suddenly become moral.
Steven> I don't think that he was insane to start with but there is a possibility that the culmination of all his bad deeds have in-sensitized his heart and he can no longer feel real emotion or his mental compass is skewed.
@Ben- I think these small details, such as the car milage, are included to make the beginning of the story seem less like a gothic story. If we don't expect something will happen, we will be more shocked by the climax.
@Benjamin: I would assume that O'Connor would put pointless facts in the introduction such as the Grandmother recording the mileage, telling the kids a story, and what she was wearing to make her easier to relate to. Many of us could relate her to our Grandmothers, and I think O'Connor wanted us to feel empathy and sorrow for this old woman. I do, though, wonder why O'Connor wouldn't name the old woman. I think that would've made her even more relateable.
I agree with Michael. The grandmother remained unnamed so that we could connect with her and apply our own personal life to what she was going through. The author used the other characters for the same reason.
@Anna- I think that by writing this short story the author is not trying to make a relationship between the characters and the reader. The goal was probably more of making the story more relatable and realistic to anyone.
Allise, she might have been trying to connect because she feels his pain, being a child that she let go. She wanted to be with him and form a relationship that was never there. She might have been also trying to prevent any further damage that he was going to do.
@Steven: I don't think he is sane. He seems to have a great deal of memory loss and an unnatural tendency to hold a grudge. This may be his connection to the grandmother. If he really is her boy then their behaviors do link. The grandmother displays the same sort of memory loss and general bleak outlook on life. This may be a hereditary trait.
Anna- during this moment of catharsis I think that the grandma caught on to what was happening. In the story there were a couple times where it took her a few moments to remember something. I feel like she is meant to be a very old lady, like how she always talks about the good old days. I don't know what it shows about the other characters, what do you think it shows about the other characters?
@Steven- I'm not sure. He acts like he is very sane and knows what he's doing, bu morally no real sane person would kill someone just out of the blue and be so nonchalant about it. Maybe it's just because he is desensitized to it, but still it's not human like.
The Misfit might realize that people don't appreciate his actions,but does he genuinely realize that his killing of innocents is evil? One common theme of psychology, is that no one thinks that they are evil, they justify it. The Misfit might be smart and calculating, but does that really mean that he isn't insane?
@Steve-That would depend on your definition of sanity. He's at least somewhat coherent, but his morals are definitely out of proportion. However, I think he is kind of insane, hence his little rant about Jesus (kind of weird way of saying it, not logical set of ideas, no specific point he's trying to make)
@ Allise I think that when the grandmother was reaching out to the Misfit she was trying to save herself. She was trying to make the Misfit feel a connection between himself and the grandmother. The grandmother was in it for herself the entire story.
@Ian- I agree with you. I didn't see any actual signs of insanity in the misfit. If he was truly insane, I don't think "misfit" is the best title for him. Psychopath or killer might be more fitting.
@Emma- I feel that a catharsis moment it brought on by either fear or if the feel threatened. Like in "The Lottery" the catharsis moment came for Tessie when she was about to get killed, as did it come for the grandma when she realized that she might not live.
@Allis- I think she was touching the Misfit for herself because she seemed so shocked when she discovered that one of the three men that got out of the truck was the Misfit. It was like she was trying to soak in the fact that the situation was real, especially after she had already mentioned to her family that he had been out loose in the Florida area, yet they were in Georgia.
@ Emma I think moments of catharsis are sparked by emotional moments. The person experiencing the catharsis is put into the situation and then they amplify it for themselves.
@Ben- I think the universal theme of this story is once someone becomes a "misfit" they will not change their ways, regardless of anything. In this case, it didn't matter if the grandma called the misfit a good person or one of her own children.
@AlliseL- There would be an argument behind both of those ideas, however,by saying, "You've got good blood! I know you wouldn't shoot a lady!""Jesus, you ought not to shoot a lady. I'll give you all the money I've got!" By pleading and offering money in return for her life, it is safe to say that she is more concerned with her own benefit. Throughout the whole story, the grandmother does not seem to care about others as much as herself, and she does not change at the end. Like Mckeala said, she represents selfishness.
@Benjamin: I think one universal theme of this story could be how when being threatened, people will do near anything to save themselves, even to the point of forgetting of the safety of those around them.
@Katie- I think that it may not be her son. She did say that when she first saw him that she felt like she knew him her whole life, then immediately recognized him as the "misfit".
Allise, she says that "your one of my own children". This could mean that he was one of her kid or her kids kid. There doesn't seem to be a resemblance from the information that we have to make a bigger connection of them. She might have mistaken him for someone else, but she wanted to connect with him.
On the last page when the Misfit says "It's no real pleasure in life", if it's no real pleasure in life, why do you think he still kills people? Do you think he felt some emotional connection with the Grandma?
@Michael- I think that of course if some one is sane or not is a question of society. The social norm is not to kill innocent people, so in our "sane" eyes he would be insane. However in his eyes or someone raised differently or in a different society, it could be accepted. It is all situational.
@Emma: Great thought! I do think this is common. In the story The Misfit said the grandmother would have been a good woman if there would have been someone there to hold a gun up to her head every moment. Because she felt threatened by this gun, she was reminded and realized how nit-picky and overbearing she had been and decided to sort of become a Christian in order to receive grace.
Katie> I think he denounces pleasure in life on the last page because to him killing has become like a task or a chore he feels like he has to do. He could have even started killing people because his search for purpose in life was futile.
Class- The mother is an extremely minor character in this story, she doesn't seem to have control over her children and she seems the let the grandmother "rule". When the misfit comes into the story and starts killing people the mother is one of the most emotional characters screaming and crying. What does the author want us to get out of this, what does her character add to the story?
@Katie F- There is the possibility that sense he is on the run and a wanted felon, he in his mind has to kill anyone that recognizes him. If he let these people go, his location might be revealed. It seems he has been running and killing so much it has almost become a habit or normal action.
@Ben--One theme: Bad is contagious. If one person does something bad, it either causes others to do that thing, or it causes others to be suspicious and mean/judgmental of those they suspect of doing such a thing. (for example, stealing stopped people being able to keep their doors unlatched.) Another theme: Everybody has evil. Even the grandmother, who seemed to be so innocent, looking down on how terrible this new generation is, was one of the most selfish and manipulative characters in the whole story, e.g. lying about the house to get the kids riled up, trying to tell the misfit he was a good person when she didn't think so at all, just to save her own skin.
@Benjamin: I don't doubt that at some point, the Misfit had a certain amount of morals. He speaks of his family in a way that makes them seem like a quality christian family. I bet he grew up with morals, but something changed him, along with his morals.
@Cassie: The Misfit might be nervous around children because he is subconsciously remembering how he killed his own father. He may see his young self in all children and the unsettles him.
@Cassie- I really liked what Kate said about how he didn't want to give away his location. Kids are naturally loud and would give away his location like that.
What do you think the Misfit meant in the last line of the story, when he said "she would of been a good woman, if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life."?
@Ben- I think the misfit behaves the way he does because he said "I can't make what all I done wrong fir what I've gone through in punishment." He was a rebelling against the law.
@Anna, I think the tenderness is part of the fact that these people have empathy towards the victims. They understand that death hurts, but they think it is right.
@Spencer, I think the Misfit also represented question (I can't think of a word to describe it) Mainly because he states, " Turn to the right, it was a wall." "Turn to the left, it was a wall. Look up it was a ceiling, look down it was a floor. I forget what I done, lady." I think he's implying that he doesn't actually know where his inner anger started. He doesn't have an answer to why he does his crimes because he doesn't know what had driven him to do it in the first place.
@Katie- Given the circumstances, I don't think the misfit feels much emotion at all. The fact that he just stated that there is no real pleasure in life for him, and his many killings don't portray much emotion on his part.
Class:Is the moment of catharsis, as the inner circle is discussing, one experienced by the grandmother? or the Misfit? or both?
ReplyDeleteWe have been talking about the position of the climax/release of emotion. Where do you think that falls in this story? How does that aid the mood/tone of this story as a whole?
ReplyDelete@Harper- I don't think The Misfit really had a moment of catharsis, just the grandmother.
ReplyDeleteIf you noticed, the story was written in limited 3rd person focused on the grandmother. How do you think the story would change if it was focused on someone else... Like the dad, or mom?
ReplyDelete@ Anna- I think the moment of catharsis was achieved by the grandmother, because The Misfit was calm and was not showing much emotion.
ReplyDeleteAnna- I think the moment of catharsis is experienced by the grandma, when she is yelling her sons name and right before the end when she says to the misfit "you're one of my babies" I think that was the moment of catharsis.
ReplyDeleteWhat purpose does the very long introduction serve. For example, why do she include pointless facts like the grandma recording the mileage of the car.
ReplyDeleteAnna, I feel that there can be more than one moment. Each character can have this moment. I do agree with the inner circle, that the grandmother and the misfit both experienced catharsis but there can be more than one moment.
ReplyDelete@Class: What was the purpose of the lack of connection between the reader and the story? How O'Conner kept the grandmother unnamed and kept referring to the characters as "the grandmother" or "the mother" or "the children"?
ReplyDelete@ Ian I think the climax of emotion was when the grandmother was shot by the Misfit, because once the grandmother was killed the tire family was killed and the story began the falling action
ReplyDeleteOne reason I think that the grandmother was unnamed, so the reader could empathize with her seeing her as a human rather than just a character.
ReplyDeleteI think the Grandmother's moment of catharsis was when she heard screams coming from the woods, and began to doubt if she would live. She screamed "Jesus! You've got good blood! I know you wouldn't shoot a lady!" and so on. She realized for sure at that point that she may not live, and only a few lines later she goes dizzy and weak, and falls to the ground. I think her moment of catharsis was her last hope to stop the Misfit from killing her.
ReplyDeleteClass- Something that I have been wondering: is the misfit sane? He's obviously killing, so he is emotionally damaged. But does he ever really show signs of insanity?
ReplyDelete@Katie- I think it would be interesting written from the mom's perspective because when asked to join her husband (after I figured out he had been murdered) she willingly left.
ReplyDeleteWhat was the significance of Red Sam's character in the dinner?
ReplyDelete@Hannah: So what happened to the grandma when she had this moment of catharsis? What does it say about her and the other characters?
ReplyDeleteSteven, do most murderers show signs of being damaged or being insane, somewhat. To me, this person just seems disturbed and that he is trying to fix something that is wrong because he doesn't understand.
ReplyDelete@Kate- I think his purpose is to add to the understanding of the title of the story. He talked with the grandmother about how people were not well-mannered anymore.
ReplyDeleteBen-I think there was a lot of intro. just to show the point of what a "grandmother"she is, I think all of the introduction information is so the reader can have an insight to the grandmother's character.
ReplyDelete@Class: Did anyone notice the presence of color in this story? What might this kind of descriptiveness mean?
ReplyDeleteClass- When the Grandma was reaching out to touch the "Misfit" do you think she was trying to help save him or herself?
ReplyDelete@Anna, I think think the majority of the Catharsis occurs to the grandma. Mainly for the similar points the the inner circle already discussed. I think the beginning of it was when she discovered that the Misfit came out of the car and found her and her family after the accident. I also think her moment of Catharsis occured when she was telling the Misfit to pray, mainly because I think she was trying to convince herself that everything was going to be okay, and that somehow maybe he would suddenly become moral.
ReplyDeleteSteven> I don't think that he was insane to start with but there is a possibility that the culmination of all his bad deeds have in-sensitized his heart and he can no longer feel real emotion or his mental compass is skewed.
ReplyDelete@Ben- I think these small details, such as the car milage, are included to make the beginning of the story seem less like a gothic story. If we don't expect something will happen, we will be more shocked by the climax.
ReplyDelete@Benjamin: I would assume that O'Connor would put pointless facts in the introduction such as the Grandmother recording the mileage, telling the kids a story, and what she was wearing to make her easier to relate to. Many of us could relate her to our Grandmothers, and I think O'Connor wanted us to feel empathy and sorrow for this old woman. I do, though, wonder why O'Connor wouldn't name the old woman. I think that would've made her even more relateable.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Michael. The grandmother remained unnamed so that we could connect with her and apply our own personal life to what she was going through. The author used the other characters for the same reason.
ReplyDelete@Anna- I think that by writing this short story the author is not trying to make a relationship between the characters and the reader. The goal was probably more of making the story more relatable and realistic to anyone.
ReplyDeleteAllise, she might have been trying to connect because she feels his pain, being a child that she let go. She wanted to be with him and form a relationship that was never there. She might have been also trying to prevent any further damage that he was going to do.
ReplyDeleteBen> I think that all this intro serves to just emphasize how normal the setting is like we saw in the two film clips five minutes ago.
ReplyDelete@Steven: I don't think he is sane. He seems to have a great deal of memory loss and an unnatural tendency to hold a grudge. This may be his connection to the grandmother. If he really is her boy then their behaviors do link. The grandmother displays the same sort of memory loss and general bleak outlook on life. This may be a hereditary trait.
ReplyDelete@Class What are the universal themes of this story?
ReplyDeleteAnna- during this moment of catharsis I think that the grandma caught on to what was happening. In the story there were a couple times where it took her a few moments to remember something. I feel like she is meant to be a very old lady, like how she always talks about the good old days. I don't know what it shows about the other characters, what do you think it shows about the other characters?
ReplyDeleteDo you think that moments of catharsis are common when people feel threatened, or are they random?
ReplyDelete@Steven- I'm not sure. He acts like he is very sane and knows what he's doing, bu morally no real sane person would kill someone just out of the blue and be so nonchalant about it. Maybe it's just because he is desensitized to it, but still it's not human like.
ReplyDeleteThe Misfit might realize that people don't appreciate his actions,but does he genuinely realize that his killing of innocents is evil? One common theme of psychology, is that no one thinks that they are evil, they justify it. The Misfit might be smart and calculating, but does that really mean that he isn't insane?
ReplyDelete@Steve-That would depend on your definition of sanity. He's at least somewhat coherent, but his morals are definitely out of proportion. However, I think he is kind of insane, hence his little rant about Jesus (kind of weird way of saying it, not logical set of ideas, no specific point he's trying to make)
ReplyDelete@Allise- I think it was more of a plea. She kept repeating to him that "You wouldn't shoot a lady". Also because she realized he is her son.
ReplyDelete@ Allise I think that when the grandmother was reaching out to the Misfit she was trying to save herself. She was trying to make the Misfit feel a connection between himself and the grandmother. The grandmother was in it for herself the entire story.
ReplyDelete@Ian- I agree with you. I didn't see any actual signs of insanity in the misfit. If he was truly insane, I don't think "misfit" is the best title for him. Psychopath or killer might be more fitting.
ReplyDelete@Emma- I feel that a catharsis moment it brought on by either fear or if the feel threatened. Like in "The Lottery" the catharsis moment came for Tessie when she was about to get killed, as did it come for the grandma when she realized that she might not live.
ReplyDelete@Allis- I think she was touching the Misfit for herself because she seemed so shocked when she discovered that one of the three men that got out of the truck was the Misfit. It was like she was trying to soak in the fact that the situation was real, especially after she had already mentioned to her family that he had been out loose in the Florida area, yet they were in Georgia.
ReplyDelete@Cassie. Do you think it really was her son?
ReplyDeleteBen> I think that a small theme of this story was the presence of personal connections despite the situation.
ReplyDelete@ Emma I think moments of catharsis are sparked by emotional moments. The person experiencing the catharsis is put into the situation and then they amplify it for themselves.
ReplyDeletePaul- Do you actually think that the Misfit was one of her literal children?
ReplyDelete@Ben- I think the universal theme of this story is once someone becomes a "misfit" they will not change their ways, regardless of anything. In this case, it didn't matter if the grandma called the misfit a good person or one of her own children.
ReplyDelete@AlliseL- There would be an argument behind both of those ideas, however,by saying, "You've got good blood! I know you wouldn't shoot a lady!""Jesus, you ought not to shoot a lady. I'll give you all the money I've got!" By pleading and offering money in return for her life, it is safe to say that she is more concerned with her own benefit. Throughout the whole story, the grandmother does not seem to care about others as much as herself, and she does not change at the end. Like Mckeala said, she represents selfishness.
ReplyDelete@Benjamin: I think one universal theme of this story could be how when being threatened, people will do near anything to save themselves, even to the point of forgetting of the safety of those around them.
ReplyDelete@Allise- I think it was because she was trying to save himself because she thought that if he could feel a connection with him she wouldn't kill her.
ReplyDeleteWhat besides being an outcast did the misfit represent in this story?
ReplyDelete@Katie- I think that it may not be her son. She did say that when she first saw him that she felt like she knew him her whole life, then immediately recognized him as the "misfit".
ReplyDeleteAllise, she says that "your one of my own children". This could mean that he was one of her kid or her kids kid. There doesn't seem to be a resemblance from the information that we have to make a bigger connection of them. She might have mistaken him for someone else, but she wanted to connect with him.
ReplyDeleteTo the class- "Daddy was a card himself. You couldn't put anything over on him." How may the Misfit's father have influenced him to be a bad person?
ReplyDelete@Spencer,the misfit represented a "counterweight" he attempted to balance things out.
ReplyDeleteOn the last page when the Misfit says "It's no real pleasure in life", if it's no real pleasure in life, why do you think he still kills people? Do you think he felt some emotional connection with the Grandma?
ReplyDelete@Michael- I think that of course if some one is sane or not is a question of society. The social norm is not to kill innocent people, so in our "sane" eyes he would be insane. However in his eyes or someone raised differently or in a different society, it could be accepted. It is all situational.
ReplyDelete@Emma: Great thought! I do think this is common. In the story The Misfit said the grandmother would have been a good woman if there would have been someone there to hold a gun up to her head every moment. Because she felt threatened by this gun, she was reminded and realized how nit-picky and overbearing she had been and decided to sort of become a Christian in order to receive grace.
ReplyDelete@Class Do you think that the Misfit had his own set of morals or was he just insane.
ReplyDeletePaul- I think she might have been saying that in an attempt to save herself and their may have been no actual connection between them biologically.
ReplyDeleteKatie> I think he denounces pleasure in life on the last page because to him killing has become like a task or a chore he feels like he has to do. He could have even started killing people because his search for purpose in life was futile.
ReplyDelete@ Michael What was the Misfit a counterwight to?
ReplyDeleteClass- The mother is an extremely minor character in this story, she doesn't seem to have control over her children and she seems the let the grandmother "rule". When the misfit comes into the story and starts killing people the mother is one of the most emotional characters screaming and crying. What does the author want us to get out of this, what does her character add to the story?
ReplyDelete@Katie F- There is the possibility that sense he is on the run and a wanted felon, he in his mind has to kill anyone that recognizes him. If he let these people go, his location might be revealed. It seems he has been running and killing so much it has almost become a habit or normal action.
ReplyDeleteAllise, true, she might have been trying to save herself, but we would all do crazy things in that situation.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think the Misfit commonly brings up how "children make him nervous"?
ReplyDelete@Ben--One theme: Bad is contagious. If one person does something bad, it either causes others to do that thing, or it causes others to be suspicious and mean/judgmental of those they suspect of doing such a thing. (for example, stealing stopped people being able to keep their doors unlatched.) Another theme: Everybody has evil. Even the grandmother, who seemed to be so innocent, looking down on how terrible this new generation is, was one of the most selfish and manipulative characters in the whole story, e.g. lying about the house to get the kids riled up, trying to tell the misfit he was a good person when she didn't think so at all, just to save her own skin.
ReplyDeleteClass: What is to be said about the kind way these killers treated their victims in the beginning? How they gently led them into the woods?
ReplyDelete@Spencer, I feel that the misfit was counteracting the injustices done to himself, and anyone else. He was spreading the pain and hurt arounf.
ReplyDeleteKate- Good point. I agree that O'Connor may have been using the grandma to symbolize selfishness.
ReplyDelete@Benjamin: I don't doubt that at some point, the Misfit had a certain amount of morals. He speaks of his family in a way that makes them seem like a quality christian family. I bet he grew up with morals, but something changed him, along with his morals.
ReplyDelete@Cassie: The Misfit might be nervous around children because he is subconsciously remembering how he killed his own father. He may see his young self in all children and the unsettles him.
ReplyDelete@Cassie- I really liked what Kate said about how he didn't want to give away his location. Kids are naturally loud and would give away his location like that.
ReplyDeleteAnna, speaking from a killer point of view, you want to make them comfortable as you lead them to their doom.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the Misfit meant in the last line of the story, when he said "she would of been a good woman, if it had been somebody there to shoot her every minute of her life."?
ReplyDelete@Ben- I think the misfit behaves the way he does because he said "I can't make what all I done wrong fir what I've gone through in punishment." He was a rebelling against the law.
ReplyDelete@ Michael: Good Point
ReplyDelete@Anna, I think the tenderness is part of the fact that these people have empathy towards the victims. They understand that death hurts, but they think it is right.
ReplyDelete@Spencer, I think the Misfit also represented question (I can't think of a word to describe it) Mainly because he states, " Turn to the right, it was a wall." "Turn to the left, it was a wall. Look up it was a ceiling, look down it was a floor. I forget what I done, lady." I think he's implying that he doesn't actually know where his inner anger started. He doesn't have an answer to why he does his crimes because he doesn't know what had driven him to do it in the first place.
ReplyDelete@Katie- Given the circumstances, I don't think the misfit feels much emotion at all. The fact that he just stated that there is no real pleasure in life for him, and his many killings don't portray much emotion on his part.
ReplyDelete