Brooke - I agree will Lross when they say that the music symbolizes youth. I think that that makes sense in our own world today. Whenever we think of music, we think mainly of youth or something youthful. I think this is symbolic of the story.
I think all of that is interesting but I think that we need to talk about something more relevant (as troy pointed out, you can make up things all you want if you overlook it). So on that note, what do you guys think about the connection to the devil? What does this add to the story and why did the author put this in?
Class - What do you think is the symbolism of all these letter and number connections talked about in the inner circle? Even though the author said she did not, do you think she meant for all these connections?
The first time Arnold sees Connie, he tell her "gonna get you baby," but she doesn't think much of this. What do you think the significance of this line is?
Class:Do you think that the celebration of normality represents something? Is it a good thing that Arnold Friend is able to identify her as "different"?
Brooke - I think an important aspect is that as the music stops she has to return back to her reality, and as the music stops her fun stops as well. Another important aspect is that he tempts her with music. If he truly was that devil he would be able to watch her and know her, and know that music is very tempting to her, and that he can lure her in with music.
Brooke.. I was just about to ask that! :) I think that music can symbolize a comfort zone. They mention music when they talk about the way Connie walks, in a happy comfortable way. Connie listens to music at the "Big Kid" restaurant and she goes there very often. A direct quote from the text is "The music was always in the background, like music as a church service; it was something to depend on." Also, later when Ellie is playing music, it seems to be a way of luring Connie by using something she's comfortable with.
I disagree that she is innocent. The author tells us she has two lives, one for home one for life. She also is clearly active with boys. I would rather say she is naive then innocent.
@John- Personally, I don't think so. It was clever of Abby to identify all those connections but I don't think it has any real substance in the importance of the story.
@Brook, I do believe that it may be saying she is dead but I more strongly believe, looking back on the connection to the devil, that she has been taken into a state of demise( form of hell) from where she was.
Class- How do you think this relates to Gothic literature. Personally I think it represents southern Gothicism the most because of how realistic it is. What do you think?
Brooke~ I think that the music symbolizes something steady and dependable for her because it seemed to calm her whenever she listened to it, also she says in the story that it was something she had grown to depend upon.
@Brooke - To answer my own question, I feel like Oates just needed to give the character a name, because she referenced her so often. Also, I looked up what the name Connie means online, and it says: constant and firm. How do you think this relates to the character Connie in this story?
John- I believe that the symbolism of all of this can show that there is a "devilish" figure in our world and that our innocence can be destroyed easily. The author denied doing this on purpose because it is the uncanny way that evil can slip into our lives.
@Nicholas, This relates to the other gothic texts by how the setting changes. If you look upon the other gothic texts, you can see a major change in setting from light to darkness. (spiritual journey)
John- I believe the significance of any type of pattern is to add an aura of mystery, or one of the unknown. This all plays right into a gothicism unit.
Garrett, I think that the use of the devil follows important themes of Gothicism.You see a lot of horror/gothic pieces that involve placing fictional figures such as the devil or demons into tangible form, as they interact with normal people.
Nicholas- This story relates to the other Gothic Stories that we have read by elaborating on the theme that everything is not the way that it seems on the surface.
Hannah- I think that it relates to the other stories because of the uncanny-ness. This story leaves a lot up to the imagination, just like all the others. We don't know why he wants her or how he knows everything about her, so we can make up the rest of the story.
The house, in my opinion, going along with the religious connection again, is where you come from which is perfection and where you can end up which is hell.
Hannah.. I think this story can relate to other Gothic texts, especially the modern "southern" gothic texts because it has all the basic elements. An obvious evil person, an oblivious surrounding, and a very confused and easily manipulated main character. It also contains some elements of the Uncanny.
Class/Maggie: In the beginning of the story, 1st paragraph, it talks about how the mother's "looks were gone and that was why she was always after Connie," and later in the story, Arnold says, "because what else is there for a girl like you but to be sweet and pretty and give in?" Is it a good thing that Arnold is able to realize the fact that she was special? Is it a bad thing for her mother to stop telling her to be so vain?
I'm not entirely sure that Arnold represents the devil, i think that he represents Connie's transformation from a naive teen into adulthood, something that can be very frightening.
Class - At the beginning of class, we talked about how Connie is always comparing herself to others, and it also is very prevalent in the story. What do you think is the symbolism of this?
The whole time, Friend was outside the door why do you think that Connie was unable to call for help and what was the significance of her going outside to him and friend never coming inside to get her?
Mikaela- I think her name describes her well. I think Connie is set in her ways,so she is constant. She is also very firm with people. If she doesn't like someone, she will let them know, like she ignored Ellie in the parking lot.
Sean, yes it does relate to the devil quite a bit but that is surface material. Finding those connections aren't important. What is important is why these connections are here. So why do you think the author wrote these? More simply, what does this add to the gothicism clearly presented in the story.
Maddie F - I do not think we can be sure if Friend was stabbing her or not. I think that the end is interesting because the author leaves the ending up to the reader to find out. This brings more mystery to the story and brings many more ideas into our heads.
Maddie- I think he was not actually stabbing her since she said "It was like he was stabbing me with each word" meaning that her comfort zone was being broken in a metaphorical sense.
John: Methinks (YAY) that the comparisons represent the vanity that youth has by showing how she believed (and perhaps was) and showed that she thought she was prettier than everything else.
@Maddie- Well I don't know if you read the same story that I was reading, but I think that we can infer what other "actions" were taking place after she picked up the phone :)
Maddie- I don't think he was stabbing her. The text never said he actually went it, it was just a metaphor. I think the "stabbing" and Connie's inability to actually call the cops was caused because Connie had never been in that situation, and the stress of the situation, and that Arnold was threatening to kill her family, put Connie into a nervous breakdown. I think this ultimately led her to giving in to Arnold.
Maddie~ I believe that it is actually not him literally stabbing her but rather her realization that she will not be able to get out in any way without being taken.
@Maddie- I think that Ellie was there to show Connie how much of a good time that she could have if she went with him, and if in fact Arnold is a depiction of the Devil then maybe it was to symbolize the false joys that is accompanied with Satan.
Garrett, First off, I don't like your tone. Don't you dare tell me what to think is important. Secondly, I think that the author used the idea and character of the devil to represent not only temptation, but also as a symbol of corrupting innocence, and preying on "sins" like vanity. The author uses Connie as a medium to convey what a "corrupt" person is like.
Maddie - I think the significance of the line "gonna get you, baby" displays how much power he has. He doesn't make it sound like he likes her, or he wants to be with her, it sounds very possessive, and definite. It's as if this is his only purpose, his mission, to "get" her. He has a lot of power and he exhibits this later in the story when he says, "The place where you cam from ain't there any more, and where you had in mind to go is cancelled out. This place you are now - inside your daddy's house - is nothing but a cardboard box I can knock down any time. You know that and always did know it." In addition this quote gives evidence that she knew that he was different the whole time.
Class~ Did anyone associate what Logan said about him burying the dead bodies in the desert with the quote about spaceships on his car, as spaceships are often associated with corn fields or deserts as crash sites or landing grounds??
Maddie- The reason for Arnold's friend Ellie is to provide that peer pressure factor. This tries to convince Connie that it would be ok to go for a ride with this Arnold Friend.
Mikaela- I was looking online and a serial killer stuffed his shoes exactly what logan is talking about and he took three young girls into his car and killed them. I think there is a correlation between those two stories.
Class - Throughout the end of the story, when Friend is trying to get Connie out, he keeps repeating "That's a good girl." Every time he said this it really stood out. Why do you think the author had Friend say this so many times?
Wow, Wow, Wow, Sean we don't need to get all hyped up bro. But anyway, I thought of the devil as more of someone who just takes the opportunity to exploit what is already corrupt. He doesn't corrupt people but rather takes advantage of those already corrupted. Ya Sean, I said it.
John: I believe that Arnold was making Connie feel special, and exploit her vanity. She very rarely received any sort of praise from any authority figures, and this really just made him special in her eyes. He offered her something no one else could.
@John- I think this is because he wanted her to feel comfortable with him, and if she is comfortable then she will comply with what he wants here to do.
Nick - I think these are different types of being different. When her mother tells her to stop being vain, I think it has to do with the fact that her mother, from a more mature perspective realizes how vain Connie is. She doesn't want Connie to stop being pretty because that's what makes her different. Later in the story Connie comments on how her mother likes her more, "Connie thought that her mother preferred her to June because she was prettier." However when Arnold notices that she is different, I think it is because he knows that is what Connie wants to hear. Connie craves attention, but this doesn't make her different from the friends that she goes out with at night. Why didn't he come after one of them?
John- I think this could be a connection to the fact that he wants to make Connie feel comfortable when he is steering her into the dark so that she feels like she is doing the right thing.
Mikaela- I didn't really understand the story so I did a little research on line. I think it was another reference to the devil, because the devil has feet like a horse which would cause him to wobble like Arnold did.
Nick~ I believe it is one of her traits that she takes pride in and will not ever be ashamed of. Also I think it gives her a feeling of risk as it is referred to whipping in the wind if she'd go with Arnold.
John- I think the author had Friend say this so many times because it kind of gave the feel that he was treating Connie and talking to her like she was a dog. As we know dogs are very submissive and easily controlled once they are trained. I think having Friend say this so many times shows Connie's transition from independence to submission. Each time he says it, it peels her a little more thin and closer to submission.
Nick- I think it shows us how vain Connie is, even when she is fearing for her life, she still cares about how she looks fixing her hair throughout the story.
Ya Garrett? You think you're sick? That's what I meant, Connie was already corrupt with primarily Vanity, and the devil is taking advantage of that. Or condemning her, to a certain extent.
Maggie: Yeah, I would agree with you. We can also see a symbolism of God: He makes it hard, however, he does so for the best, to try to keep you away from evil.
Class - There were several signs or "codes" throughout the novel that signify that Arnold is the devil or at the very least dangerous. The fact that he goes through many different terms to describe what Ellie does, "he said in a rapid, meaningless voice, as if he were running through all the expressions he'd learned but was no longer sure which of them was in style." Also what does his sign, the x represent?
Mind Blown.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the importance of music in the story?
ReplyDelete@brookeR i think that the music symbolizes youth
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think Joyce Carol Oates writes the first sentence "Her name was Connie"?
ReplyDeleteBrooke - I agree will Lross when they say that the music symbolizes youth. I think that that makes sense in our own world today. Whenever we think of music, we think mainly of youth or something youthful. I think this is symbolic of the story.
ReplyDelete@Brooke - I think that music represents innocence and youth and it's what makes Connie happy.
ReplyDeleteMikaela- I was wondering that too. Why does the author use past tense to describe her? Is she trying to suggest the Connie is now dead?
ReplyDeleteI think all of that is interesting but I think that we need to talk about something more relevant (as troy pointed out, you can make up things all you want if you overlook it). So on that note, what do you guys think about the connection to the devil? What does this add to the story and why did the author put this in?
ReplyDeleteClass - What do you think is the symbolism of all these letter and number connections talked about in the inner circle? Even though the author said she did not, do you think she meant for all these connections?
ReplyDeleteThe first time Arnold sees Connie, he tell her "gonna get you baby," but she doesn't think much of this. What do you think the significance of this line is?
ReplyDeleteClass:Do you think that the celebration of normality represents something? Is it a good thing that Arnold Friend is able to identify her as "different"?
ReplyDeleteBrooke - I think an important aspect is that as the music stops she has to return back to her reality, and as the music stops her fun stops as well. Another important aspect is that he tempts her with music. If he truly was that devil he would be able to watch her and know her, and know that music is very tempting to her, and that he can lure her in with music.
ReplyDeleteBrooke.. I was just about to ask that! :) I think that music can symbolize a comfort zone. They mention music when they talk about the way Connie walks, in a happy comfortable way. Connie listens to music at the "Big Kid" restaurant and she goes there very often. A direct quote from the text is "The music was always in the background, like music as a church service; it was something to depend on." Also, later when Ellie is playing music, it seems to be a way of luring Connie by using something she's comfortable with.
ReplyDeleteI disagree that she is innocent. The author tells us she has two lives, one for home one for life. She also is clearly active with boys. I would rather say she is naive then innocent.
ReplyDelete@John- Personally, I don't think so. It was clever of Abby to identify all those connections but I don't think it has any real substance in the importance of the story.
ReplyDeleteNick - Can you elaborate on what you mean?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think the author made Connie so obsessed with her looks? And, what was the role of the mom?
ReplyDeleteClass: How does this relate to the other gothic stories we have read?
ReplyDelete@Brook, I do believe that it may be saying she is dead but I more strongly believe, looking back on the connection to the devil, that she has been taken into a state of demise( form of hell) from where she was.
ReplyDeleteClass- How do you think this relates to Gothic literature. Personally I think it represents southern Gothicism the most because of how realistic it is. What do you think?
ReplyDeleteBrooke~ I think that the music symbolizes something steady and dependable for her because it seemed to calm her whenever she listened to it, also she says in the story that it was something she had grown to depend upon.
ReplyDeleteMaddie F - I think that that line is mainly an creepy foreshadowing of what is to come. He says "gonna get you baby" but in the end, he truly does.
ReplyDeleteTroy - How would this make her appealing to someone like Arnold, specifically if he is the devil, as is speculated.
ReplyDelete@Brooke - To answer my own question, I feel like Oates just needed to give the character a name, because she referenced her so often. Also, I looked up what the name Connie means online, and it says: constant and firm. How do you think this relates to the character Connie in this story?
ReplyDeleteJohn- I believe that the symbolism of all of this can show that there is a "devilish" figure in our world and that our innocence can be destroyed easily. The author denied doing this on purpose because it is the uncanny way that evil can slip into our lives.
ReplyDelete@Nicholas, This relates to the other gothic texts by how the setting changes. If you look upon the other gothic texts, you can see a major change in setting from light to darkness. (spiritual journey)
ReplyDeleteJohn- I believe the significance of any type of pattern is to add an aura of mystery, or one of the unknown. This all plays right into a gothicism unit.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think is the importance or significance of their side conversation about her neighbor down the street that she says is dead?
ReplyDeleteGarrett, I think that the use of the devil follows important themes of Gothicism.You see a lot of horror/gothic pieces that involve placing fictional figures such as the devil or demons into tangible form, as they interact with normal people.
ReplyDeleteNicholas- This story relates to the other Gothic Stories that we have read by elaborating on the theme that everything is not the way that it seems on the surface.
ReplyDeleteHannah- I think that it relates to the other stories because of the uncanny-ness. This story leaves a lot up to the imagination, just like all the others. We don't know why he wants her or how he knows everything about her, so we can make up the rest of the story.
ReplyDeleteThe house, in my opinion, going along with the religious connection again, is where you come from which is perfection and where you can end up which is hell.
ReplyDeleteClass - If Arnold Friend represents the devil, who is Ellie and what purpose does he serve?
ReplyDelete@Class- What does Connie personally symbolize?
ReplyDeleteHannah.. I think this story can relate to other Gothic texts, especially the modern "southern" gothic texts because it has all the basic elements. An obvious evil person, an oblivious surrounding, and a very confused and easily manipulated main character. It also contains some elements of the Uncanny.
ReplyDeleteClass/Maggie: In the beginning of the story, 1st paragraph, it talks about how the mother's "looks were gone and that was why she was always after Connie," and later in the story, Arnold says, "because what else is there for a girl like you but to be sweet and pretty and give in?" Is it a good thing that Arnold is able to realize the fact that she was special? Is it a bad thing for her mother to stop telling her to be so vain?
ReplyDeleteI'm not entirely sure that Arnold represents the devil, i think that he represents Connie's transformation from a naive teen into adulthood, something that can be very frightening.
ReplyDeleteClass - At the beginning of class, we talked about how Connie is always comparing herself to others, and it also is very prevalent in the story. What do you think is the symbolism of this?
ReplyDeleteClass-
ReplyDeleteThe whole time, Friend was outside the door why do you think that Connie was unable to call for help and what was the significance of her going outside to him and friend never coming inside to get her?
Mikaela- I think her name describes her well. I think Connie is set in her ways,so she is constant. She is also very firm with people. If she doesn't like someone, she will let them know, like she ignored Ellie in the parking lot.
ReplyDeleteClass- Was he actually stabbing her or was something else going on?
ReplyDeleteCorbin- I think that Connie can symbolize a part of us that is still very innocence and that being broken by entering the real world.
ReplyDeleteSean, yes it does relate to the devil quite a bit but that is surface material. Finding those connections aren't important. What is important is why these connections are here. So why do you think the author wrote these? More simply, what does this add to the gothicism clearly presented in the story.
ReplyDeleteCLASS -
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think the significance is of Oates mentioning Arnold's feet several times??
Maddie F - I do not think we can be sure if Friend was stabbing her or not. I think that the end is interesting because the author leaves the ending up to the reader to find out. This brings more mystery to the story and brings many more ideas into our heads.
ReplyDeleteExperience grows as age grows, their directly related.
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I think he was not actually stabbing her since she said "It was like he was stabbing me with each word" meaning that her comfort zone was being broken in a metaphorical sense.
ReplyDeleteJohn: Methinks (YAY) that the comparisons represent the vanity that youth has by showing how she believed (and perhaps was) and showed that she thought she was prettier than everything else.
ReplyDelete@Maddie- Well I don't know if you read the same story that I was reading, but I think that we can infer what other "actions" were taking place after she picked up the phone :)
ReplyDeleteClass- What is the reason for Arnold's friend Ellie?
ReplyDeleteMaddie- I don't think he was stabbing her. The text never said he actually went it, it was just a metaphor. I think the "stabbing" and Connie's inability to actually call the cops was caused because Connie had never been in that situation, and the stress of the situation, and that Arnold was threatening to kill her family, put Connie into a nervous breakdown. I think this ultimately led her to giving in to Arnold.
ReplyDelete@John P - I think that characterizing Connie as a vain girl, shows she is just a normal girl who isn't entirely self confident.
ReplyDeleteMikeala, that is just to exentuate how he is the devil and he doesn't have human like feet.
ReplyDeleteMaddie~ I believe that it is actually not him literally stabbing her but rather her realization that she will not be able to get out in any way without being taken.
ReplyDelete@Maddie- I think that Ellie was there to show Connie how much of a good time that she could have if she went with him, and if in fact Arnold is a depiction of the Devil then maybe it was to symbolize the false joys that is accompanied with Satan.
ReplyDeleteGarrett, First off, I don't like your tone. Don't you dare tell me what to think is important. Secondly, I think that the author used the idea and character of the devil to represent not only temptation, but also as a symbol of corrupting innocence, and preying on "sins" like vanity. The author uses Connie as a medium to convey what a "corrupt" person is like.
ReplyDeleteMaddie - I think the significance of the line "gonna get you, baby" displays how much power he has. He doesn't make it sound like he likes her, or he wants to be with her, it sounds very possessive, and definite. It's as if this is his only purpose, his mission, to "get" her. He has a lot of power and he exhibits this later in the story when he says, "The place where you cam from ain't there any more, and where you had in mind to go is cancelled out. This place you are now - inside your daddy's house - is nothing but a cardboard box I can knock down any time. You know that and always did know it." In addition this quote gives evidence that she knew that he was different the whole time.
ReplyDelete@Maddie - In the stories Maria mentioned the tales where the men who prayed on young girls traveled in pairs.
ReplyDeleteClass~ Did anyone associate what Logan said about him burying the dead bodies in the desert with the quote about spaceships on his car, as spaceships are often associated with corn fields or deserts as crash sites or landing grounds??
ReplyDeleteMaddie- The reason for Arnold's friend Ellie is to provide that peer pressure factor. This tries to convince Connie that it would be ok to go for a ride with this Arnold Friend.
ReplyDeleteMikaela- I was looking online and a serial killer stuffed his shoes exactly what logan is talking about and he took three young girls into his car and killed them. I think there is a correlation between those two stories.
ReplyDelete@ Sean - How is Connie a corrupt person?
ReplyDeleteClass: On page 5, Arnold's car is described, with bright paint, ARNOLD FRIEND, and an expression "MAN THE FLYING SAUCERS" Why are these significant?
ReplyDeleteClass - Throughout the end of the story, when Friend is trying to get Connie out, he keeps repeating "That's a good girl." Every time he said this it really stood out. Why do you think the author had Friend say this so many times?
ReplyDelete@ Hannah - I agree, but like Garrett mentioned earlier, it could be that he represents the devil, with non-human like feet.
ReplyDeleteClass- Is there any significance or symbolism for the amount of times Connie cares for her hair.
ReplyDeleteWow, Wow, Wow, Sean we don't need to get all hyped up bro. But anyway, I thought of the devil as more of someone who just takes the opportunity to exploit what is already corrupt. He doesn't corrupt people but rather takes advantage of those already corrupted. Ya Sean, I said it.
ReplyDeleteJohn: I believe that Arnold was making Connie feel special, and exploit her vanity. She very rarely received any sort of praise from any authority figures, and this really just made him special in her eyes. He offered her something no one else could.
ReplyDelete@John- I think this is because he wanted her to feel comfortable with him, and if she is comfortable then she will comply with what he wants here to do.
ReplyDeleteNick - I think these are different types of being different. When her mother tells her to stop being vain, I think it has to do with the fact that her mother, from a more mature perspective realizes how vain Connie is. She doesn't want Connie to stop being pretty because that's what makes her different. Later in the story Connie comments on how her mother likes her more, "Connie thought that her mother preferred her to June because she was prettier." However when Arnold notices that she is different, I think it is because he knows that is what Connie wants to hear. Connie craves attention, but this doesn't make her different from the friends that she goes out with at night. Why didn't he come after one of them?
ReplyDeleteJohn- I think this could be a connection to the fact that he wants to make Connie feel comfortable when he is steering her into the dark so that she feels like she is doing the right thing.
ReplyDeleteMikaela- I didn't really understand the story so I did a little research on line. I think it was another reference to the devil, because the devil has feet like a horse which would cause him to wobble like Arnold did.
ReplyDeleteNick~ I believe it is one of her traits that she takes pride in and will not ever be ashamed of. Also I think it gives her a feeling of risk as it is referred to whipping in the wind if she'd go with Arnold.
ReplyDeleteJohn- I think the author had Friend say this so many times because it kind of gave the feel that he was treating Connie and talking to her like she was a dog. As we know dogs are very submissive and easily controlled once they are trained. I think having Friend say this so many times shows Connie's transition from independence to submission. Each time he says it, it peels her a little more thin and closer to submission.
ReplyDeleteNick- I think it shows us how vain Connie is, even when she is fearing for her life, she still cares about how she looks fixing her hair throughout the story.
ReplyDeleteYa Garrett? You think you're sick? That's what I meant, Connie was already corrupt with primarily Vanity, and the devil is taking advantage of that. Or condemning her, to a certain extent.
ReplyDeleteMaggie: Yeah, I would agree with you. We can also see a symbolism of God: He makes it hard, however, he does so for the best, to try to keep you away from evil.
ReplyDelete@Maddie - I agree, that's what I thought, because otherwise it doesn't make sense why the author would reference them so often.
ReplyDeleteClass - There were several signs or "codes" throughout the novel that signify that Arnold is the devil or at the very least dangerous. The fact that he goes through many different terms to describe what Ellie does, "he said in a rapid, meaningless voice, as if he were running through all the expressions he'd learned but was no longer sure which of them was in style." Also what does his sign, the x represent?
ReplyDelete